Find What You're Looking For:
Navigation
The Categories
- Art (3)
- Cartoons (3)
- John Wauck (4)
- Life of Jesus Christ (4)
- Mortification (7)
- On Opus Dei (13)
- Recommended Posts (17)
- The Church (5)
- The Da Vinci Code (121)
- What others said (4)
The Archives
- March 2011
- November 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- April 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
- November 2007
- September 2007
- June 2007
Posts By Date
| M | T | W | T | F | S | S |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| « Mar | ||||||
| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | ||
| 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |
| 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |
| 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 |
| 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | ||
Registered Users
Subscribe
Everyone knows that, in these days, we find ourselves in a moment of change and decision, the outcome of which will shape the future for years to come.
And, no, I’m not talking about the presidential primaries in the United States of America – interesting though they may be.
This week, here in Rome, the Society of Jesus will begin the process (it starts with four days of prayer, before the actual voting begins) of choosing a successor to Fr. Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, the first superior general of the Jesuits to retire rather than serve until death.
There are a number of reasons why I think that the election of a superior general for the Jesuits may be as important as a presidential election in the United States.
First of all, there is the extraordinary importance that the Jesuits have had and continue to have in the Church Рespecially, the importance of their institutions of education: from the Gregorian University here in Rome to the countless schools and universities scattered all over the world. Both in terms of numbers and geographical extension, the Church is a much larger “body politic” than the United States, and, with the decline of mainstream Protestant denominations, the Church is increasingly perceived as the sole authoritative voice of Christianity. As the historically pre-eminent religious order and the traditional intelligentsia of that ecclesial “body politic,” the Jesuits have a crucial role in determining the tone with which the Church speaks.
Second, while an American president holds power for at most eight years (unless, of course, his wife becomes president… he being, lest we forget, our first Jesuit-educated president), the superior general of the Jesuits, in principle, holds office for life. The outcome of this election can be with us for a very long time.
Third, the international reach of the general of the Jesuits is rivaled only by that of the pope himself. The decisions of one Jesuit general can have a direct, ongoing impact on generations of young people in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Americas. The religious future – and with it, often, the political future Рof countries can depend on these decisions, especially in the developing world, where the Jesuits’ relative importance is even greater. I referred above to President Clinton’s Jesuit education partly in jest, but also partly because it shows in that the educational role of the Jesuits is far from being a merely internal “Catholic affair.”
In other words, even though it’s not making the front pages now with Barak and Huck, a great deal is riding on the decision of the 217 Jesuit electors in Rome, and I hope that we will all keep them in our prayers.
||
Print This Post
||
Email This Post
||
Other Recent Posts
Fr. John Wauck Blogs again!
- Filed under John Wauck. Created on March 20th.
Don’t Skip This Ad: A Brand New Book!
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on November 28th.
The Catholic Choice
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on November 2nd.
Just When You Thought It Was Safe
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on September 24th.
Juno/Juneau
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on September 2nd.
Read It and Weep… with Laughter
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on August 23rd.
The New Yorker: “Catholicism has everything else beat”
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on August 14th.
Don’t Give Up on Europe
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on July 11th.
B. in the U.S. A.: The Sheep Confirm the Shepherd’s Hope
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on April 27th.
Catholicism’s Cultural Glass: Half Empty or Half Full?
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on April 13th.
Us Canadians owe a lot of thanks to the Jesuits, for they were the ones that did most of the work in the founding of Canada. In 1611 the first Jesuits landed in Canada. Fathers Masse, Br?©beuf, and Charles Lalemant were some of the first. I live only a one hour drive from the site in Midland Ontario where Father Jean de Br?©beuf was martyred near the small fort which they called Fort Ste. Marie. I visit there regularily. The Jesuits Antony Daniel, Charles Garnier, Gabriel Lalemant, Isaac Jogues, John de Brebeuf, and Noel Chabanel, along with two lay men John Lalande and Rene Goupil are the Canadian Martyrs. The Holy Father Pop John Paul II visited the fort and Shrine whe he came to Canada in 1984. The Shrine http://www.martyrs-shrine.com/story/index.cfm is a very peaceful site and is still run by the Jesuits.
The Jesuits have been instrumental in founding parishes, schools and post-secondary institutions throughout Canada.
I write for a little Jesuit Magazine called the Canadian Messenger of the Sacred Heart. It is the longest running Catholic magazine in Canada. You can find out more about this magazine here: http://www.jesuits.ca/What_we_do/sacred_heart_international.php
One of my favourite books is Evelyn Waugh’s “Edmund Campion, Jesuit and Martyr. The way the Jesuits bravely went to dangerous places to bring the Blessed Sacrament to the people was so courageous.
I often find as a member of The Work, I look to the example of the brave missionary Jesuits when I am trying to do my little apostolic task in my own town. We can all learn a lot from their zeal in spreading the love of Jesus Christ throughout the world.
I have the vivid pictures imprinted on my brain of the martyrdom of Jesuit Father Pro in Mexico and I recall those photos whenever I am afraid to do aposolate in my own country. If you scroll down you can see those pictures here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Pro
More than 300 Jesuits were martyred during the 20th century. Some of them were murdered; others died as a result of maltreatment; others were simply made to “disappear” by terrorist regimes who regularly hide their victims. We owe a lot to the Jesuits.
Father, you give them too much credit in some ways from my lens. What you say, can not be disputed. However, if we look at them as a sports team, they never got the goal. The Dominicans did what they needed to do.
I think if you look at them as a hockey team they did get a lots of goals over the centuries and I will pray they will get more in the years ahead.
Speaking of goals though Helen, did anyone happen to notice who won the World Junior Hockey championships? If you guessed Canada for the 4th year in a row you are correct. Apparently Czechoslovakia is a “sea of red” according to our local news when we beat Sweden for the gold. Go team Canada!
Does anyone know who the contenders are for this position with the Jesuits? I have not been doing much studying of my faith lately.
When thinking about the Jesuits, it is important, as Dianne says, to look at the whole picture. Whatever one may think about the last 40 years, the nearly-500-year history of the Jesuits is absolutely full of sanctity, service, heroism, martyrdom and scholarship. On this blog, we’ve already talked a lot about the martyrs in Elizabethan England. Many were Jesuits. The recovery of alrge parts of Europe after the Reformation was due largely to the work of the Jesuits.
Everyone has probably seen the film The Mission – which shows only a tiny piece of the vast missionary work of the Jesuits: India, Japan, China…
We all owe the sons of St. Ignatius a great deal.
The Church in Canada– even Canada herself, owes a great deal to the courage of Jesuit missionaries.
If anyone ever visits Ontario, the reconstructed Sainte Marie among the Hurons is well worth a visit. We’ve visited the graves of St. Jean de Brebeuf and St. Gabriel Lalement there, though you can visit the graves without paying admission to Sainte Marie (which runs as a provincial museum, I think)– you can do it via the Martyr’s Shrine.
http://www.saintemarieamongthehurons.on.ca/english/index.htm
And here’s a link to the Martyr’s Shrine, Midland, Ontario, which contains relics of the Canadian Jesuit martyrs– I think I’ve posted this link before, but it’s worth posting here:
http://www.martyrs-shrine.com/story/index.cfm?
I cannot resist this one for Helen, one of my favourite Jesuit jokes, or maybe its a Dominican Joke:
What is similar about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?
Well, they were both founded by Spaniards, St. Dominic for the Dominicans, and St. Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits.
They were also both founded to combat heresy: the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians, and the Jesuits to fight the Protestants.
What is different about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?
Well, have you met any Albigensians lately?
There are thousands of choices for the Jesuits to choose from. The Superior General Fr Peter-Hans Kolvenbach’s said in a joint interview with Vatican Radio and the L’Osservatore Romano.”Choosing one from among the thousands of Jesuits capable (of being general), the society will say what it expects for its future: a prophet or a wise man, an innovator or a moderator, a contemplative or an activist, a point man or a man of unity.” You can hear the interview here: http://www.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=177972
We need to pray in order to help the Jesuits hear the one that the Holy Spirit wants. The Holy Father gets the final say so I am sure the Holy Spirit will be heard. He can say yes or no to their choice. Since they have had about 2 years to prepare for this I am sure they must have some sort of short list, which is probably still pretty long.
I like the way the Superior General of the Jesuits is often refered to as the “Black Pope”, I assume because of their black robes, while the Holy Father is refered to as the “White Pope”. Obviously since this is the church’s largest religious order it is very important that we pray for the outcome.
Father Kolvenbach will open the gathering tomorrow, which it soon will be in Rome, by lighting the traditional lamp at the tomb of Ignatius and praying that “in this time of grace we may seek and find in all things God‚Äôs divine presence and know his sovereign will.”
Similar lamps are lit in Jesuit chapels around the world. Each will burn for the duration of the months-long meeting.
I’ll also pray to one of my favourite Jesuits, St. Francis Xavier, to help them in their decision. And since we are still in the Chritmas season I will end with my other favourite Jesuit Joke:
One cold winter’s day in Bethlehem, just after he had been born, Jesus is lying asleep in the manger. Awaking from his nap, he opens his eyes, sees the ox and the ass standing beside him, and thinks to himself, “So this is the Company of Jesus!”
Diane, you are very funny!
Of course, I mean no disrespect to the Jesuits. Thanks for the link too!
No disrespect meant, I just like a good joke.
Here is Time magazine’s article on the topic:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1700157,00.html?xid=newsletter-weekly
Looks like there is more than 1 person using the nickname Tony on this blog. Hopefully, there isn’t any confusion between the two of us.
Tony the Original
I read the biography of Mother Angelica by Raymond Arroyo and he said that she called her male helpers who were able to get her things she needed for her special projects, her “Tonys”. Now I think she was refering to Italian guys, maybe not of the best of character, but maybe we can have our own “Tonys” here. I am Italian, and we always make a joke at the Italian Weddings by yelling out “Hey Tony”, and see how many people turn around. There are a lot of Tonys out there for sure. You will have to be like the Michelles on this blog and distinguish yourself in some way.
Dianne, Czechoslovakia = Past Tense. “I am Italian”, then Dianne, everything forgiven (was always, and is my dearest nation after mine).
Helen, that was not “good cry”, just was sincere as always.
My experience with Jesuits in Zagreb was excellent, and I never understand what is the “problem” with them in abroad. Holly Masses at eleven o¬¥ clock for students and intelectuals were extraordinary, with excellent sermons, reverent and with sacred music usually in Latin.
Helen, I am not sure if we understood each other correctly. Your sentence in spirit of Croatian language has an non defined meaning (Uvijek je po?æeljno dobro se isplakati u svom srcu). Anyway, my intention was to say that we, as Catholics should not fear from the miracles (as you said it, in some way, before for yourself – “reject”), because our God is alive and he can do and do miracles. He was incarnated in “flesh”, and we should also not fear from “physical”, as you correctly say.
Sorry Jossip, I’m showing my age. The Czech Republic, Ààt É…õk riÀàp åbl…®k,and not Czechia, was a sea of red! I’ll pass the big 50 mark in a few weeks so I have lost a lot of brain cells. All my friends from the Czech republic came here before 1989 so they always say Czechoslovakia. That way us old people know where they came from.
Everything is OK, Dianne. Long live Czech Republic AND Slovak Republic!
Josip, no problem with the language- I do not fear the physical or miracles!
Those fears are the sacrament of the Reformation.
Not fears for Catholics.
I say “good cry” meaning РMy eyes well up with tears as I see something like that. I am amazed at how I still am finding so much to be surprised by my catholic faith.
Catholics are blessed with so many treasures, so many graces from God.
It makes me think, I was on spiritual contr*ception for so many years! Keeping God out!
Until I woke up.
No more of that, because one leads to the other. The Physical kind.
Catholics do not fear the physical, if its a proper physical.
If you dont understand me, I will try again, I dont think I am the one who always says things clearly.
I always understand you.
Father, you can delete my prior post, I re-posted. Not knowing Contrac*ption was a trigger.
Thats a big topic.
Josip, what is the “problem” with them abroad….
Its individuals, but on a large scale. Its not the Jesuit spirit, but it just so happens, quite a few of them are scandalous in both bad teachings and crimes here.
Mass? Huh! Come to my parish when my Jesuit priest does the daily mass. Be ready to have smelling salts or a defibrilator handy.
Lets pray for them in the USA. Especially here in the midwest.
Helen,
word “reject” (you do know what I mean) belongs to your past, and am so happy to read: “I am amazed at how I still am finding so much to be surprised by my catholic faith”. Your every word is important for me, because I read it with care for you and want your happiness, as I know that you want for me, too.
Helen, I know the situation about Jesuits in US reading the net. My experience is completely different, and when I will go to Zagreb, I have no doubt where I will go to Holly Mass.
Hope that you will like these articles and person:
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/archives.htm
How funny, Michelle, that you should talk about Sainte Marie among the Hurons and the Jesuits. I mentioned earlier that, before Christmas, I celebrated Mass for a couple from Canada who were in Rome to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary. What I failed to mention was that they, as a sign of thanks, they gave me a present: a book about the Jesuit mission of Sainte Marie among the Hurons, which sits on my desk. As they say… dinky world.
That is funny, Father.
The Martyr’s Shrine in Midland is a site of many and frequent pilgrimages for Ontario Catholics, and of course JP II celebrated Mass there the first time he visited Canada. It really is a must-visit place– and the country there is lovely. When we’ve visited the shrine and Sainte Marie, it’s been as part of a camping trip to Awenda Provincial Park, which is roughly 1/2 hour away, on Georgian Bay:
http://www.awendapark.ca/gallery.htm
I’m feeling very grateful to French missionaries these days for my own faith. I’ve only recently learned (through an aunt who makes geneology her hobby) that one set of my 7th great-grandparents were actually a native couple, and that my 5th great-grandfather was baptised, where his own parents were married in 1745, in Oka (Mohawk country), Quebec, at L’Annonciation-de-la-Bienheureuse-Vierge-Marie, run by Sulpicians. The Sulpicians first came to Montreal to take over for the Jesuits. All of us Catholics owe so much to the courage of good holy people, going back generation upon generation….
We go every year for a pilgrimage to Martys Shrine. We always stop by the office of the priest in charge and get a blessing. We visit the graves at St. Marie, the free way, for the forst itself is quite pricey. Then we stop by the site of Martyrdom outside of town, down a lttle road. They have an outdoor altar there and celebrate mass there once a week in the summer outside. Then we go to Balm Beach on Georgian Bay. We use to always go to the Beach right in Midland at Little Lake park but now thwe geese have taken over that lake so we avoid it. It is nice to canoe there.
One of our friends, a priest, once canoed the route of the Jesuits from Quebec through to St. Marie with a group of priests. He wrote a little book about it. It is very interesting.
My favourite Christmas Carol is:
The Huron Carol (‘Twas In The Moon of Winter Time)
‘Twas in the moon of wintertime when all the birds had fled
That mighty Gitchi Manitou sent angel choirs instead;
Before their light the stars grew dim and wondering hunters heard the hymn,
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.
Within a lodge of broken bark the tender babe was found;
A ragged robe of rabbit skin enwrapped his beauty round
But as the hunter braves drew nigh the angel song rang loud and high
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.
The earliest moon of wintertime is not so round and fair
As was the ring of glory on the helpless infant there.
The chiefs from far before him knelt with gifts of fox and beaver pelt.
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.
O children of the forest free, O seed of Manitou
The holy Child of earth and heaven is born today for you.
Come kneel before the radiant boy who brings you beauty peace and joy.
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.
Words: Jean de Brebeuf, ca. 1643; trans by Jesse Edgar Middleton, 1926
Music: French Canadian melody (tune name: Jesous Ahatonhia)
You can hear it here: http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000323.html
In my country, as in the U.S., some Jesuit priests are also teach some errors to people such as teaching liberation theology, telling a woman in confession that artificial contraception is acceptable for some reason, etc. They run several excellent univesities and schools in our country, including a prestigious co-ed grade school and high school where I live. WE do have to pray for this decision a lot!
In my country, as in the U.S., some Jesuit priests are also teach some errors to people such as teaching liberation theology, telling a woman in confession that artificial contra*eption is acceptable for some reason, etc. They run several excellent univesities and schools in our country, including a prestigious co-ed grade school and high school where I live. WE do have to pray for this decision a lot!
Re-posted this because of a word trigger.
Interesting link for J.A. (It has connections with Jesuits, Opus Dei, Croatia, Philippines…)
http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/9317/1/Catholic-confraternity-in-Philippines-promoting-Blessed-Ivan-Merz/Blessing-the-Confraternity-of-Catholic-Saints-and-Philippines.html
J.A. that is why we have to pray so they will listen to the Holy Spirit.
The Prefect of the Congregation for Religious, Cardinal Franc Rode, did challenge the Society. At a Mass for the assembled Jesuits, he criticized the increasing failure of the Jesuits to think with the Church, and stressed the need of the Order to return to the charism of St. Ignatius, which was “To serve the Lord and his Spouse the Church under the Roman Pontiff.”
John Paul II tried to influence the course of the order when Kolvenbach was elected, by holding off the election and installing a temporary head to organize the process. Maybe this time the assembled Jesuits will respond more positively to Cardinal Rode if we are praying for them. Here is a link to his homily:
http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=7959
Josip! What a beautiful site. We loved the story of Ivan Merz. What a wonderful example for us all.
It was exciting this week to read that the beatification of John Henry Newman may take place this year.
I wonder how long its going to take for a vote to be final. The anticipation is killing me now.
J.A. – todays errors in the Jesuit homily regarding the Gospel repudiated infant baptism as “magic”, a denial of original sin, a denial of limbo, and how silly the east is for baptising so fast.
All this somehow tied into Jesus being baptised.
“Si racconta che quando Dio cre?? il mondo, affinch?© gli ordini religiosi prosperassero decise di concedere loro due virt?? ciascuno. E cos?¨ fece: I Legionari di Cristo li fece ordinati e rispettosi delle leggi. I Domenicani perseveranti e studiosi. Quelli dell’Opus Dei lavoratori e pazienti. I Benedettini colti e raffinati. I Francescani allegri e accoglienti. Quando arriv?? ai Gesuiti si rivolse all’Angelo che prendeva nota e gli disse: “I Gesuiti saranno intelligenti, onesti e di sinistra!”
Quando termin?? con la creazione, l’Angelo gli disse: “Signore, hai dato a tutti gli ordini due virt??, ma ai Gesuiti tre, questo far?† s?¨ che prevarranno su tutti gli altri”. “?à vero! Ma le virt?? divine non si possono pi?? togliere: che i Gesuiti abbiano tre virt??! Per?? ogni persona non potr?† averne pi?? di due insieme”. Fu cos?¨ che:
- Il Gesuita che ?® di sinistra ed onesto, non pu?? essere intelligente. -
- Il Gesuita che ?® intelligente e di sinistra, non pu?? essere onesto. -
- Il Gesuita che ?® intelligente ed onesto, non pu?? essere di sinistra…”
Dianne, I am sure that you will understand deep meaning, and in this joke everything is said.
I just thought of another debt I have to the Jesuits. After I graduated, I was looking for a good book to educate myself about living my Catholic faith as it was meant to be lived. The catechesis I’d received up to then, while not necessarily wrong, was certainly incomplete. The Catechism of the Catholic Church had not yet been published, and this was many years before I got any spiritual direction from Opus Dei (we’re talking late 80′s). One book I found to be very helpful was The Catholic Catechism by John Hardon, S. J. It is very orthodox and it answered some questions very well for me. I just checked it out on Amazon, and I found out that they are pairing it in a special offer with Scott Hahn’s book Ordinary Work Extraordinary Grace: My Spiritual Journey in Opus Dei– isn’t that nice?
http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Catechism-John-Hardon/dp/038508045X/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200319270&sr=8-9
Opus Escrivo and Scientology are dangerous sctes. Please keep out children form Opus Escrivo and Scientology, please do not listen to people such as Wauck. The world has fully understoos that people should stay far away from Opus Esiivio and Scientoogy
Michelle, one of my former doctoral students is working on Fr. Hardon’s process of beatification. Maybe I should put her in touch with you, and you can offer testimony on his behalf!
What nice news– makes up for the parking ticket I got in Toronto today. I had no idea his cause was up. Fr. Hardon’s catechism was actually recommended to my husband by two different friends of ours (now priests) who were in the seminary, so he brought it home one day back in 1986. It’s still on our shelf.
Josip, I’m familiar with the group through a social networking site. I don’t think have members in my place though.
Famous joke between university students.
A member of Scientology and a member of Opus Escrivius die and go to hell. The Devil asks the member of Scientology what has he done in life? He replies that he was devoted to Hubbard and was scared about spaceplans of Xanu and Ufos. The Devil laughs and states that his punishment would be to view X-file espisodes for 200 years. Then the Devil asks the member of Opus Escrivius what has he done in life. He replies that he whipped himself almost every day, that he was happy to wear a cilice and was devoted to Escrivius. The Devil sends him to the Masochistis Cirle in Hell but before that he says good job my child, he take away his mask and show himself like Escrivius
Here is a beautiful link, for those of us who will never be there in person! Apparently this is a video of the Holy Father’s private daily mass. I have had a few friends who are priests who have had the good fortune of concelebrating at the private Mass of Pope John Paul II. One was a Jesuit. This special grace changed their life for the better.
http://gazetadarestauracao.blogspot.com/2008/01/missa-privada-do-papa.html
J.A., nice to hear that you are familiar with the group which is doing a great job in your country. St. Josemaria Escriva and bl. Ivan Merz certainly have a great role connecting our friendly nations.
Dianne, Thanks so much for the great link. We always see the Pope saying Mass to the large crowds; it’s touching to see him offer Mass in a more intimate setting.
Tony
Josip, is Katoliƒçka Akcija still active in Croatia? Someone dear to me gave me his lapel pin (“Katoliƒçka Akcija u Hrvatskoj”) shortly before he died, but it must have been at least 50-55 years old.
He was exceedingly proud when I told him I was getting spiritual formation in Opus Dei, I suspect he would have done the same if The Work had been around during his time. Thanks.
Tony, Katoliƒçka Akcija (Catholic Action) is still active in Croatia but in another form, or better to say, in a spirit of Catholic Action exists “Kri?æari”. Here is the link from your county:
http://www.krizari.hr/
Isn’t Dre funny? The title for “Director of Religious Education” or DRE. LOL!
Big news here in Rome today.
The Pope, in a surprise move, cancelled a speech he had been invited to give at Rome’s main state-run university, La Sapienza (originally founded by the Church, of course). The cancellation was due to a series of protests by radical anti-clerical students and professors – a tiny group in comarison to the massive population of the university. Today, the students and company – a scruffy-looking gaggle of aging hippies and sullen young punks – had occupied the faculty senate of the university, and that seems to be what provoked the pope’s decision.
In Italy, this is a huge event, and the first half of the evening news dealt with nothing else: interviews with Romano Prodi (the head of the government), the editor of the Italian equivalent of the NYTimes, a debate in parliament… and much more. All of it – across the political spectrum – was in favor of the pope. The editor of the Corriere della Sera likened the incident to the story about the trash building up in Naples – just more shameful dirt on Italy’s good name in the eyes of the world.
My favorite moment was when the TV journalist interviewed a young student – rather grungy looking, to tell the truth. The young man was amazed by the protests and asked “what century are we living in?” To him, the protesters seemed a blast from the past – not the sixties, but the 1700s! They reminded him of the anti-Catholic bigots of the bad old days. You gotta love it.
Perhaps the pope can now invite any students who would like to hear what he has to say to come to a special meeting at St. Peter’s. It would draw a huge crowd – especially now after all the uproar.
The announcer of the principal evening news report abandoned all pretence of objectivity and asked the editor of the newspaper: The president of Iran can speak at Columbia University in New York City, but the pope can’t speak at the University of Rome?? What’s wrong with our country?
Father Wauck I was so shocked when I read this news this afternoon here in Canada. It has not made the mainstream news yet. Here in Ontario, the province we live in, my member of parliament is trying to pass the idea of a “Pope John Paul II Day”, as a provincial holiday for the province because of the 2 beautiful visits he made to our province. If Pope Benedict was coming here we would give him a warm welcome. I remember at WYD there were apparently a few protesters but everyone knew they were wacko.
I hope the Holy Father takes up your idea and invites them to St. Peter’s!
Re-thinking the matter, I suppose it would be best if the students themselves were to take the initiative. Some group of students from La Sapienza should say, “We have been cheated out of a very special opportunity. Through no fault of our own, we have been denied a chance to listen to the Holy Father’s words in our own university. If it is not possible to have the pope speak to us here, then we would like to ask the Holy Father to speak to us in some other place.”
Then the Holy See can grant the students’ request for a special audience with the pope.
Good evening to you all,
Yes,the news was on Rai uno all afternoon.. Ivano saw it first as I was not in the office..
I must say I wish that Pope Benedict had not cancelled,It only gives “un precedente” for future *protesters*
as in; “All we have to do is make a noise,get in the media…. and voil?° we win”…
It is scandalous indeed,that a (marginally) few can bring about such a decision…
I am not sure that it was a wise one.. What next? Will Pope Benedikt (or future Popes) only be able to speak (openly) in Catholic,Churches,Cathederals.. or only where he is *welcomed by ALL*??
This surely can not be (for the future) in the interest of the office of the Pope ..
To *give way* is some times *wise*, but this could be seen as *giving in*.. I am sure that Pope Benedikt could have given a very good “account of himself”, and the position of the Catholic Church… was that the reason some did not want him there? What were they sooo afraid of? ……. FREE Speech?? Is that not what *science* has always defended, demanded?
I do not (as you all know)always agree with the position of the Catholic Church on various issues, *science*
vs. *tradition*, but this is ridiculous, an *affronto* to any democratic thinking *future scientist* Catholic or not..
A sad day for Italy / Rome /the Catholic community (there) in in particular.
Here’s something to cheer everyone up– I saw this story on another website, and went to the original source– more protesting students!!
http://www.christendom.edu/news/releases.shtml#march
Plus we’re still hoping that he’ll come to see us here in Canada–
http://www.catholicregister.org/content/view/1433/849/
Michelle,a very interesting link,I only had time to browse through the article about the *protesters*
and when I tried again it was gone..
can you find it again for me?… Please
The consolation though… I found lots of interesting articles there thanks…
it’s incredible to see what Example of love of Christ and the world gives Wauck. Read his words of Christian love “Today, the students and company – a scruffy-looking gaggle of aging hippies and sullen young punks “.
Wauck you are a good Escrivius Apostle, Escrivius who is in hell will be proud. Congratulations
To cheer us all up even more— more students with signs!!
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Papacy-and-Vatican/ss/events/wl/033002pope/im:/080116/ids_photos_wl/r1376854444.jpg#/080116/ids_photos_wl/r3411327771.jpg
Thinking about Father’s description of some of the protesters against the Holy Father makes me think of some of the “professional” protesters I used to see around campus, how some of them looked far too old to be students, yet there they were at a table outside the building, or standing and holding up leaflets or whatever…. Showing up when political or religious leaders came to speak, hanging around outside of Convocation Hall during this or that event.
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
Hey Father Wauck! Cardinal Ruini must read your blog too! Or is it just that great minds think alike! If I was young still I would hop on a plane and come and join you all, but I will be with you in spirit. When Pope John Paull II died, many of my friends young adult children just got on the next plane from Canada to Rome and were there. Thye left job and everything and just went. I would love to be able to do that right now.
Cardinal Ruini calls on faithful to show support for Holy Father this Sunday
ROME, Jan 16, 2008 / 11:24 am (CNA).- Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the Pope’s Vicar for the Diocese of Rome, has called on the faithful to gather this Sunday in St. Peter’s Square during the recitation of the Angelus to show their support for Pope Benedict XVI after his visit to La Sapienza University in Rome was cancelled amid protests from students and faculty.
The Pontiff had planned to inaugurate the new academic year at La Sapienza, but threats of violent protests by a group of students and professors led the Vatican to cancel the visit.
During the Wednesday General Audience today, hundreds of students from La Sapienza expressed their solidarity with the Pope.
The intolerance against the Holy Father has cause a wave of protests across Italy. Cardinal Ruini said in a press release that the issue “has been a painful blow to the entire city of Rome” and he called on the faithful to gather this Sunday at St. Peter’s Square “as a gesture of affection and solidarity” towards the Holy Father.
Italy’s President Giorgio Napolitano sent a letter to the Pontiff expressing his “sincere and genuine bitterness” over the matter. He called the protests and “offensive threats” against the Pope “unacceptable” and “incompatible” with free expression.
For his part, Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi said it was “inadmissible that the Pope could speak at the university, which is a place of dialogue and openness.” The Italian Federation of Catholic Universities said that what happened at La Sapienza represents “a grave and illegitimate act of intolerance that profoundly tarnishes the conscience of the Italian university.”
Archbishop Gianfranco Ravassi, president of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the protests against the Pope’s presence at the university, which paradoxically was founded by a Pontiff, Pope Boniface VIII, constitute on the one hand a kind of “cultural fundamentalism” that is from the beginning “closed to listening and to coming together,” and on the other hand “a true defeat for the culture, beyond the purely religious aspect.”
The Vatican said that hundreds of ecclesial movements and organizations are sending in expressions of support and solidarity for the Holy Father.
To get back on topic I just cannot resist this one, another favourite Jesuit story. Hope I do not get kicked off this blog for all my joking around! But here goes:
A Franciscan, a Dominican and a Jesuit are transported back in time to the Birth of Our Lord.
The Franciscan, seeing Almighty God become a little Child, is overcome with humility and joy.
The Dominican, seeing the eternal Word become flesh, is transfixed in ecstasy.
The Jesuit takes St. Joseph and Our Lady aside, and asks: “Have you given any thought to his education?”
About the “aging hippies”… tonight’s TV news in Italy asked a few of them to reminisce about the 60s. There was definitely a faded feeling to the whole affair. Among the professors who protested (60 or so out of about 4,000 at the university), a good number were retired.
The CNA story that Dianne quotes above seems to have left out a key negative is the phrase attributed to Romano Prodi, the Italian Prime Minister. Surely he said it was inadmissible that the Pope could NOT speak at the university.
It will be interesting to see what happens in St. Peter’s Square on Sunday. I imagine there will be a big crowd and a festive atmosphere.
Good one Dianne.
and so fitting
Ah, those protesters can’t hold a candle to the ones back in the ’60′s and early ’70′s when Viet Nam fueled bottomless outrage. But they remind me of the good old college days when our campus was shut down 2 years in a row by “student unrest”, once because of anger at the county police for marijuana arrests, the folks in charge frightened at the turning over of a police car and setting it on fire in revenge; the next year by the reaction to the invasion of Cambodia and the Kent State massacre a couple days later. To be sure the student body was heavily Jewish and many of them the grandchildren of anarchists and socialists, but it was a wild place even for that time. Amazing how we all took it for granted–that that kind of thing happened all the time and would forever.
Now 2 of my boys go to the same school and are astonished and disbelieving that *anything* could engender that kind of reaction, so sunk in apathy are their classmates who alternately burn the midnight oil and drink to excess. They’re worried about their futures. I can’t really remember anyone being so concerned when I was their age–everybody thought things would just work out. It’s a different world and not better.
Concerning the “ageing hippies” I heard an interview on TV (from such a one) in wich the person stated that he was glad not to have taken his Doctor Degree at that University (he moved to Milano),for if he had he would be, after this incident, feel compelled to give it back..
Free expresion of thought / views, and the right to do so,is for all,not just for the “rowdy” mob…
Now on another (personal) note..
Dre. ‘esquire’.
Your last comment is a little *rich* don’t you agree?
1) Father John Wauck, I personally, object to you leaving out the, ‘Father’ (or ‘John’ Wauck),as you, in an un-mannerly way do,who happens to be the host of this blog,allows you to post very impudent comments,in which you abuse and debase a person dear to him..
You then think it appropriate to *reprimand* HIM on (*possibly*) an un-wise choice of words, describing (quite accurately by the way) a groupe of very unruly, and from all reports Illegal *protesters*.
2) I have never before witnessed such rhetoric from Fa.Wauck in all the months (20 +) I have visited this blog,which tells me / us, how much this incident has ‘angered’ him, understandable as Father Wauck must have *first-hand* accouts… he lives and lectures in Rome..
3) Going by your comments,it would seem that you pride yourself on havig, *kowledge* concerning who,and who may not be in Hell.. Do you have some kind of *insider* information?? I wonder!!!
Please record that I am NOT a member of Opus Dei,never the less, I am a Christian,and as such, would prefere if you could keep you language a little more civil..
Arguments brought forward in such a manner can not be taken seriously.. They are on the same level with the, *unruly mob* we witnessed on TV ..
With due regards….
Even Mr Arn, who attended the same school, got into the spirit. He wasn’t always a balding middle-aged actuary but once had the honor of being teargassed in front of the Justice Dept in DC the night of the Moratorium, Nov. 15, 1969. “Yes Kids, your Dad was once wild and crazy enough for that”. “Tin soldiers and Nixon coming”
Hi! ARN nice to see you back…
)
Yes the 60ties!!!
Although I do not condone violence (in any form), the *protesters* of the Viet Nam War were protesting against Killing inocent human beings.. as were the “Human Rights Movment” Violence is a product of *ignorance*
it only breeds more violence.. *Dialogue* is the way to convincing people.. not a *log* or a brick,nor any other weapon..
Are we (our youth) more complacent?? I don’t really know about that… maybe they have learnt from past mistakes…
I never witnessed any *protest marches* in my youth.. (born a few years late I expect
To protest lawfully,in a non violent fashion, is every *man’s* right, this *right* should not be impeached.
I just read that the 4-day period when the delegates discuss possible candidates for Superior General started on Tuesday. First vote is expected on Saturday.
“Yes Kids, your Dad was once wild and crazy enough for that”.
I see you found your *soulmate* ARN..
You crazy woman..
The marches we went on in the 80′s were past the abortion clinic in the adjoining neighbourhood. Those were pretty huge. I have to admit I gave up on those not because of the abuse hurled at pro-lifers from across the street, but because of the behaviour of some of the protesters, who responded in kind, dumped garbage on the clinic lawn, etc.
Hey Tony! What do you mean by “first vote”? How many will there be?
Michelle, I agree there are some wacko abortion protests- but of all causes, and all things to give up if you are the light to others is not to give up. I just started doing more at the women’s shelter right across from the abortion mill here. If everyone left like you, who would be there? And, who would keep the light on for them to see their darkness when they do bad? I guess its not for everyone.
Michelle, I remember those late 1980′s events pretty well. But I have to tell you, the scene in Buffalo was quite the opposite. Very prayerful and really focused on the task at hand, whether they were sidewalk counselors or those praying, or protesting of some sort. Each group stayed on task.
I don’t want to get too vivid but I remember people having things thrown literally in their faces from close range by the “other side.” And I don’t mean people protesting or anything– simply praying the rosary quietly. It was vile.
Hi Helen,
No telling how many rounds. A “simple majority” (50% + 1) is required. So they may have to narrow it down with a few initial rounds.
Here’s a pretty interesting article (and video) on the events taking place: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=26446
By the way, this article says that Fr. Kolvenbach was elected on the first ballot!
Definitely time to increase the prayers for them.
I don’t think it’s the case that picketing clinics is the only way to go. It got to the point in Toronto that area businesses couldn’t stand the whole scene, and Dr. Morgentaler (the man responsible for the fact that we have no abortion law in Canada right now) began to be portrayed more and more as a hero– carrying on despite what the media portrayed as personal risk, etc…And now as a result in Ontario we have “bubble zone” laws so that even something as quiet as a life chain (people praying the rosary together) has to take place along a road that is far away from the hospital or clinic.
Let me explain what I mean by giving an example of something in my city that was much quieter and in my opinion very effective. The pro-life group on campus here invited people from Silent No More (women who have had abortions and sincerely regret them) to simply come and speak, tell their stories from a corner of the student centre. My husband happened to be passing through the building (getting himself a Tim Horton’s coffee– they’re all over campus, too) and witnessed it. What’s remarkable is that there were many young people whose attention had been caught, and who were listening attentively and respectfully. The best part is, some people from the university tried to complain about the event using the argument that they had felt “intimidated”, “afraid” to pass through the student centre, but of course they didn’t have a leg to stand on.
There are many ways to witness, to argue for change, that don’t necessarily involve protest signs. Letters to the editor, speaking to students, donating to shelters for single mothers, getting involved in the political process, standing one’s ground when one is being asked to compromise morals in a professional situation. Even chipping away in private conversations with people– my son tells me it is a constant source of debate all over the student com boxes in his health sci program. I’m going to disagree with ARN here and say that I have a lot of hope in this generation of young people– I think they just choose different means to fight their battles. But let me be clear here and say that I have a great deal of respect for those who do courageously and peacefully protest. And we also need to remember that our prayers, our work offered up, are the best weapon.
I tend to agree with Michelle that there are many, many ways we can effect change. But I take a really “Big Tent” view on it– any method that is reasonable and effective should be done. The Silent No More example at the University is great and probably put pro-life people in a more favorable light with the administration and a lot of the student body. At the same time, though, there are some who might be turned off by such a dispassionate approach– speaking calmly about something as horrendous as abortion‚Äî a properly-held protest/rally may get their attention more.
Prayer is absolutely necessary. But things don’t generally happen without some corresponding action. For example, a girl walking into a clinic usually won’t act on any change of heart, until approached by a counselor. Ora et labora (Prayer and Action).
The symbol of fire for the Holy Spirit is a great point for meditation for me. The truth contains both light and heat. Some people are initially drawn to the fullness of the Truth by way of light (initial appeal is reason); others are drawn to the Truth by heat (appeal more to the passion/senses).
Tony– I should be clear. Most of the times I picketed in the 80′s (there were only a few) were peaceful. However, the last day I ever went, I felt badly for the area businesses who were on or near the picketing route, and it was then that I witnessed some uncharitable remarks and behaviour (although no violence or roughness to be sure). It put me off, I’m afraid, and I decided not to go back, because I felt there were other means available to use.
I agree– a properly held protest or rally is excellent. They tend to get great numbers and draw attention to a cause, and there is no “bubble zone” issue on Parliament Hill.
One last point– I wouldn’t call the Silent No More event dispassionate. The speeches were evidently heartfelt, which is why they were getting respectful attention. One can be relatively quiet and yet still quite passionate.
I am with you on the big tent approach by the way.
“One can be relatively quiet and yet still quite passionate.”
Any husband who’s ever gotten what is commonly called “The Look” would have no argument with that statement, whatsoever!!
I was speaking more of the Rah-Rah type of passion of a Parliamentary Hill/D.C. Pro-Life Rally. I’ve heard personal testimonies from women who’ve gone through this pain, and there’s doubt of the passion present.
Hey Michelle M,
I was at that same protest and saw that garbage too. I was very disillusioned with the the pro-life movement after that. We responded to that disillusion by helping start a shelter for teen moms. Eventually we were disillusioned again when about 12 years after the beginning we were at a board meeting for the shelter and the majority of the board, all apparently Catholic, stood up and announced they were pro-choice! We stepped back from the board then then and we think it has gone back to being a mostly pro-life board now, but it was shocking when that happened. We had set the board bylaws that more than 50% of the board had to be Catholic, thinking that would protect us, back in the 1980s.
It is very important though that pro-lifers get involved with these type of organizations so we can help them stay pro-life.
Here’s a link to Our Holy Father’s letter to the rector of La Sapienza: http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/d0_en.htm
At the end is this gem:
In closing his discourse, the Benedict XVI asks: “What does the Pope have to do or to say to the university?” And he answers: “Certainly he must not seek to impose on others, in an authoritarian way, a faith which can only be given in freedom.
“Over and above his ministry as a pastor in the Church and on the basis of the intrinsic nature of such pastoral ministry”, the Pope concludes, “it his job to maintain high the awareness of truth, inviting reason ever and anew to seek truth, goodness, God and, on this journey, encouraging it to notice the valuable lights that have arisen during the history of the Christian faith”.”
Seeing the way people are protesting his appearance reminds me of one of my mom’s favorite phrases: Hearing the truth sometimes hurts, but ignoring it won’t help you any.
Thanks, Sandra, for your very charitable reading of my description of the protesters. I confess that I did get a kick out of being called uncharitable by someone who, in the same breath, was condemning someone else – a canonized saint, no less – to hell.
I really was trying to be accurate. “Aging hippies” is exactly what some of these folks were, and I meant “punks” more in the aesthetic sense (as in punk-rock) than in the merely derogatory sense (as in Dirty Harry’s “well, do ya, punk?”). I’d be happy to retract “punk” if someone has a better word for this style of kid.
The fellow you saw on television – saying he would have returned his diploma if he’d ever graduated from the Sapienza – is Giuliano Ferrara, a former communist , now self-proclaimed “laico devoto.” One of the most interesting people in Italy. He’s the editor of the newspaper Il Foglio, which, this moring, published the entire text of the pope’s speech on the front page – leaving the paper’s own masthead for the inside (ie., on “page 3″), something I have never seen before in my life: a newspaper wrapped in a papal speech. And the editor is not a Catholic or even a believing Christian. He is quite fat, and he signs his editorials “il elefantino”!
Our prayers and our work being offered up is great, but I think there are some women who will tell you that had they only seen the ultrasound of their baby they would not have aborted it. Sorry, I am just not going to wait around for a prayer to reach that young lady, or wait for a prayer to give her the nececities she needs from maternity clothes to assistance with medical care she needs to not be a murderer. I can’t give her those things, but I can offer my time to the clinic here that does all that. I hate to sound cynical, but it truly is a matter of life and death and I dont think we can say well, I offered up my work and prayers and trust that it will all work out! There are women walking in there by the grace of God that truly need someone to actually be there physically present to them. I even gave up adoration for it, thinking I AM seeing Christ in those women walking in! I dont have to sit in a room where I am seeing Him. I can actually touch Christ in that woman’s hand who is looking for a hand to hold. That is Christ. That baby in her womb fighting for its life is Christ. And, I can actually hope that this woman will not murder her baby. I dont have to worry about murder in the cozy environment of the adoration chapel. Except for the focus of Christ’s passion which already happened.
Helen, your love for these children is beautiful. But don’t discount the power of prayer. It isn’t a matter of “Our prayers and our work being offered up is great, but…” It’s more AND than BUT. Think of it this way: you go to the clinic and you reach 2-5 women at one clinic. You pray before the Blessed Sacrament with the faith of a mustard seed (no easy task, by the way), and many more women will be reached.
Mass is the source and summit of our life. Come to pray, then go and act– that’s how Mass is the source of our Christian life. To try and go it alone is to forego the best means of success we have.
“I can actually touch Christ in that woman‚Äôs hand who is looking for a hand to hold. That is Christ.”
“I dont have to worry about murder in the cozy environment of the adoration chapel. Except for the focus of Christ‚Äôs passion which already happened.”
Not only is that woman at the clinic Christ, but so is the baby within her. I may be off the mark on the way I phrase this (Father, please correct me) but I remember pretty vividly being taught as an older child that we aren’t to blame the Jews for nailing Jesus to the Cross– rather, we nail Him ourselves every time we sin.
Speaking of the many ways of preventing abortions, the above-mentioned Giuliano Ferrara has begun a campaign, inspired by the UN’s call for a moratorium on the death penalty, to declare a moratorium on abortion. At first, it seemed purely quixotic, but it has garned enormous attention for the issue here in Italy – especially because it is coming from a well-known intellectual non-believer, and not from a Catholic bishop. Not long ago, Ferrara printed a pro-life article by the Village Voice’s Nat Hentoff in his paper Il Foglio. Here in Italy, these issues tend to divide very sharply along “cattolici”-versus-”laici” lines, so figures like Hentoff (a far left pro-lifer) are few and far between.
Actually, the masthead of today’s Foglio appeared both over the speech and again, over a normal news page, on page 3. It was as if the paper had two front pages.
At the ceremony today at La Sapienza where the pope was supposed to talk, his speech was read and received with sustained applause – many professors stood up – by the large audience that was listening. The mayor of the city and the Italian minister of education were also present and condemned the intolerance toward the pope.
Tony, you did miss where I said the child fighting for its life in the womb is also Christ.
And, yes- its hard to have the faith of a mustard seed. That unborn child, that life is smaller than a mustard seed at conception. But- I have faith its a human baby, not a “parasite” or a usurper that has no right to be in another person’s body.
But, my “efforts” are all in vain if I dont show any fruit for all my praying.
Speaking of rallies in front of abortion clinics, today I just saw “Juno”, a very funny movie about a pregnant 16 y.o. (she’s witty and what the nuns in my grammar school would call shamefully “bold”) who opts to put her baby up for adoption after considering an abortion. She’s ambivalent about it but what helps put her off for good is the lone protester, to be sure a figure of fun in the movie, who tells her the baby has fingernails already. As well as the dispiriting atmosphere in the clinic. I don’t know how often that happens, but it wouldn’t surprise me that many women are very uncertain if they want to go through with it.
“Juno” is played for laughs but is very moving at times, especially one scene in the mall with the adoptive mother talking to the baby through Juno’s belly at her suggestion. A twist near the end I won’t reveal shows what troopers all concerned are. Here’s some dialog (on a very bad day for the heroine) from memory:
Juno’s Dad to a heavily pregnant Juno: So what’ve you been up to today, Puffy Version of my Junebug?
Juno: Just dealing with situations way beyond my maturity level.
ARN– we saw it New Year’s eve and loved, loved it. I admit to being in tears at the end. Canadian director and star!!
Mercatornet review of Juno:
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/juno/
Thanks, Helen. I think maybe my tone may comes across in writing as trying to be more instructive, rather than simply as encouraging. I realize you know this stuff. I’m sure we’re on the same page, but sometimes it helps to see things put a different way. That’s all I was trying to do here– just encourage you to press on with the ora and the labora.
I am directing a master’s thesis about the portrayal of abortion in film, and “Juno” will among the Exhibits A (if mulltiply exhibits A are possible), along with Bella, Knocked Up, and Waitress. One of the points of the research project is that film presentations of pregancy – going back to the original Alfie and Godfather II – rarely present the unborn child as anything but a baby, with whom characters interact personally (as in the scene ARN describes). This, despite the overhwhelmingly “pro-choice” rhetoric and politics of most of the film industry. The reasons for this are probably various, but I think it’s partly because the “pro-choice” party line is psychologically false and, as a consequence, dramatically deadening.
Well Fr Wauck, I hope you get to see this delightful movie as part of the job. And Michelle, I was tearing up at the end too. The heroine is *such* a character and nobody, except her very supportive parents, know what to make of her, including her utterly decent devoted “boyfriend” whose feelings she unwittingly hurts. She’s spirited and unpredictable as this conversation between Juno and her classmate (they discuss an assignment) protesting in front of the clinic shows:
Su Chin: I’m having a little trouble concentrating.
Juno: Oh well. I can lend you some of my atoral if you want.
Su Chin: No thanks. I’m off pills.
Juno: That’s good, I heard this one chick took like too many behavioral meds and she went to the mall, ripped off all her clothes, dived into the fountain and was all like “ARG I’M A KRAKKEN FROM THE SEA!”
Su Chin: I heard that was you.
I’ve read pro-choice writers dismiss the idea that these movies have a pro-life sensibility by sniffing “Well, if she had the abortion, there’d be no story.” They don’t seem to get how psychologically true that is.
Last year I read, via another blog, a short story in the New Yorker, of all places, about a young couple facing an unplanned pregnancy. It was beautifully written, not preachy in the least. I”m re-reading it now over my breakfast:
http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2007/02/05/070205fi_fiction_wallace
In my opinion Opus Escriuvius members are not Christian and he every rational person in the world think they are a dangerous sect. I do not consider Wauck a priest.
I thank Wauck becuase with his posting proves he is not a Christian priest. If you read the gospel, Christ say to his apostole to go a prech his love, now read Wauck words, “the students and company – a scruffy-looking gaggle of aging hippies and sullen young punks ” a Christian should preach the woprd of God and his example to students, Wauck the Escrvius disciple say they are scruffi looking gaggle of aging hippied and sullen young punks. Now that you are another demosntration of waht Opus Escrivius his, keep out your children for this sect.
ARN– my favourite exchange from Juno:
Juno: I mean, you’re so cool and you don’t even have to try.
Paulie: Actually, I try really hard.
“dramatically deadening”
Because it’s such a psychological downer since people really want to be optimistic and upbeat? Here’s more evidence: The ads for pregnancy kits always portray the happy couple or mother-to-be rejoicing over the coming blessed event when the test shows positive. But anyone who thinks about it knows a positive is likely unwelcome to many of the test-takers. The advertisers won’t push viewers’ faces into that fact given their understanding of human nature.
Now we have another joke for the University.
A priest dies and go to Paradise. An angel asks him What has he done in life? He replies, I talked with students who proclamed them atheist, I talked about Jesus’ example, I lvoed them and converted them to Christianity my my example. The students grow up, married and set up happy families. They lived as good parents in this world and always remembered the words of Christ.
An Opus Escriuvs member dies and go to Hell. Satan ask him what he has done in life. He replies I met many people who proclamed them atheist. The were a damn scruffy-looking gaggle of aging hippies and sullen yougn punks. The punks are sick people, we as Opus Escrivius must fight them. God Damn it!
Here’s an article from the “Lives” column of the NYT Magazine a couple weeks ago that would probably depress even some avid prochoicers. It certainly got me upset for awhile after reading it. Here’s an unmarried couple in love and planning to eventually marry who decide to terminate a pregnancy. There’s nothing *wrong* with their circumstances-no fetal indications, no financial desperation from what one can see, no rape or incest for sure, and no health-of-the-mother issues- but for a little scrambling and changes of plans to allow the pregnancy to continue. But they don’t. So for some it’s come to that. I find that very sad.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/magazine/16lives-t.html?_r=1&scp=6&sq=lives+abortion&oref=slogin
Good after noon to you all,
I have not much time for viiting the blog at the moment,but felt that I must ask a few questions.
1. Do all really think that the title “Pro Choice” in all cases apropriate ?
My undertanding of choice is something quite different… ei’ choosing an apple rather than a pear..
I am convinced that in at least 80% of the abortions cases the person in question feels they have NO choice..
2. How can we (Pro life)expect respect for an unborn child,when a whole generation is being brought up with NO respect for the lives of others (including their own)?
3. Do you not agree that it is time that the Parents were educated in social behaviour,which they then could pass on to their children (by example).. and “parenting”??
We hear every day about some teenager (and younger) taking inocent lives,then taking their own, “binge”- drinking,commiting violent crimes.. usw.
Ofcourse they are at fault.. but not alone..
This is where the Churches come in.. Not ‘just’ preaching,praying.but by DOING..
The Idea that ‘wayward’ teenagers can be “turnrd arround” by opening more Christian ‘clubs’,is all very well ment, but what happens when at the end of the day,they have to return to an inviornment of violence,drugs,
drink, abuse, all this (they witness) at home.. on the streets.. in their schools… and finally see, that if they / we,make enough ‘noise’ throw enough tantrums,behave badly even during a leagal / just protest we eventually get what we want… which is more often than not “attention”..
There is a movement in the USA and elsewhere called “Breaking the Circle” I heard of this on TV the other day and was very impressed.. A book by Christof Arnold, “Why forgive” seems to be very good. I have not had time to research it yet but perhaps one of you will have heard of it?
Adult education in this area is long neglected..
I am sure that it would be of greater assistance to families as a whole.. which does not mean that the youth should in turn be neglected.
If we listen to the comments of the families of these teenage “murderers” we hear the almost identical words:
” I have no idea how he / she could have done such a thing,we never noticed any signs of such behaviour in him / her”..HOW COME??? I would ask,……as we all should..
We as teenagers ran the danger of geting pregnant because of “ignorance”,today it is a case of neglect.
And when “it” happens who is there to help (hands on I mean)??
Yes! ARN is right, “the times they are a changing”, but not for the better..
Adult education in this field could be a chalenge for the new Superior General of the Society of Jesus…
One more thought,I would greet the idea put forward by a british politician,that when a youth is found guilty of a crime and sentenced,the parents (alternately) should be sentenced to the same punishment.. this I believe would be most effective.. also that a sentence should not be shortend for good behaviour,but instead prolonged for bad behaviour..
It is writen in the scriptures “He who loves his child should not spare the rod”.. (I do not advocate corporal punishment by this,it is not ment literally.)..
“feeling” you have no choice, and having no choice are two different things. This is, exactly the same thing I have been trying to say over and over again about people “feeling” they know what is the correct theology.
Feelings and emotions can be dangerous, and also far from reality leading either to actual death, or spiritual death, usually both.
I reject any spurious claim stating 80 percent of the women who abort do so because they feel they have no choice. I reject it because no reliable data can support this man made pulled out of the air number.
We can expect very little from human beings. Strike that, we have no right to expect anything from human beings. And since I have a feeling someone may run wild with that, I will quickly remind everyone the Church is not a purely human institution.
We can expect to be heard by other human beings who do not have properly formed consciences and are gravely deficient in their thinking to stop allowing this murder of innocents to be legal in any country.
Education in social behavior is such a ambigous comment. It could run the gamut from meaning a class on how to properly set a table to how not to get knocked up. Lets stop using soft dummied down talk out of their play book and say what we mean, and mean what we say.
Preach/Pray/Do
Of course, not any one of these things are mutually exclusive of the other. Anyone who is Doing is also hearing the preacher (Jesus) and praying and doing. So, another comment that was of no value or insight.
“ran the danger because of ignorance”
Well that one is much too tempting to touch so I will not be led into temptation to really go to town on that one.
Arn, that story was truly sad. The hypocrisy of saying its between “them” and then sharing that story in print in the NYT of all places. I guess their words are worthless and hopefully they will repent of their murder and not so subtle encouragement to others to murder also.
“Adult education in this field could be a chalenge for the new Superior General of the Society of Jesus”
Its been done already Sandra. Its a little thing called one of the ten commandments, ever hear of it?
Thou shalt not murder
Back to topic in our wait while we pray for the Jesuits. Here is some new news on the topic:
Pope prods Jesuits on loyalty to Church
Vatican, Jan. 18, 2008 (CWNews.com) – In a message to the 35th general convention of the Society of Jesus, Pope Benedict XVI (bio – news) has called for a revival of traditional Jesuit loyalty to the Catholic faith and the Holy See.
“I heartily hope that the present congregation affirms with clarity the authentic charism of the Founder so as to encourage all Jesuits to promote true and healthy Catholic doctrine,” the Holy Father wrote in a message to the 225 Jesuit delegates meeting in Rome. The Pope’s letter was dated January 10, but made public on January 18, the day before the general congregation was scheduled to elect a new superior general.
Pope Benedict called the Society of Jesus to a “renewed ascetic and apostolic impulse.” In more specific terms he suggested that:
… it could prove extremely useful that the general congregation reaffirm, in the spirit of St. Ignatius, its own total adhesion to Catholic doctrine, in particular on those neuralgic points which today are strongly attacked by secular culture, as for example the relationship between Christ and religions; some aspects of the theology of liberation; and various points of sexual morality, especially as regards the indissolubility of marriage and the pastoral care of homosexual persons.
The Pope also reminded the delegates of the special loyalty that Jesuits owe to the Holy See, confirmed “in a vow of immediate obedience to the successor of Peter.” That loyalty is urgently needed today, he said, to help preach the Gospel message faithfully to a society “distracted by many discordant voices.”
Pope Benedict offered his “most heartfelt gratitude” to the outgoing Jesuit superior, Father Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, for nearly 25 years of leadership. He also thanked all of the Jesuits who have worked faithfully for the Church. He promised his prayers for the success of the general congregation and the future of the Jesuit order.
I think that, on the question of “choice,” Helen and Sandra are not really in disagreement. Helen is obviously right that we do have choices and, for better or worse, we make them, but my impression is that Sandra was saying that, subjectively, most women who abort their unborn children do not experience this as a triumph of choice at all. Even though, objectively, they are free to choose, they feel this choice as profoundly unwelcome and frequently feel forced toward the worst choice. This too seems to be true. I recall reading a poll years ago in which something like 35 percent of women who’d had abortions said that they considered abortion to be murder. Pathological cases aside, these cannot have been “choices” that were warmly embraced.
If our corporate overlords had their way, there’d be even *more* abortion as it would either be either brutally curtailed reproduction by whatever means or resigning oneself to debt peonage. There will be no “play” in the system allowing for surprise pregnancy as the world we live in becomes even more ruthlessly rationalized and efficient.
Don’t let the Republican Party line fool you: abortion (and a debased and intimidated middle class that feels forced to resort to it) is as important to the modern economy as the Federal Reserve.
It’s the multinational corporations’ world; we just live in it.
Father, lets say we are talking about a woman living in my city. Say she finds out the news she is with child.
I really can not imagine she is totally unaware of Crisis pregnancy centers. I really can not imagine she does not know about catholic run programs in her area to contact. Its kind of like the bible here, everyone knows its there, can get it even online, and if they dont read it, its not because they did not know it was there. They Chose not to read it. The woman “feeling” forced to commit murder- is I am sure also able to mentally “scrape” out any recollection of a crisis center or anyone who she could have turned to for help.
IOW, I think we need to be a little bit more objective about their silly excuses.
ARN, I am telling you there is a lot to be said for what you just posted. I just read a few days ago about a woman in China who was only days away from giving birth that was forcibly removed from her home by the government to be given an injection to kill her baby. She was in the hospital for 44 days. No permit was the reason. These animals are a superpower.
Helen–Their excuses aren’t silly but often very real: The women who’s threatened with abandonment by her live-in boyfriend or her husband, for instance. If she has no financial support the child may as well be dead is the way she’d look at it. Back in the 60-70′s, AFDC was pretty generous compared to what it is now– very little grudgingly given and even that pittance will likely soon erode further. Give the child up? What if she had to work and couldn’t afford to take time off? Thank God I’ve never had to make a terrible choice like that .
It was never easy if you don’t mind my meandering. One cousin in the crazy wing of my family got pregnant and had to live with her brother in another city lest she scandalize her younger siblings. Another wound up married to her 18 y.o. boyfriend which broke up 5 years later, leaving her financially at loose ends with 2 kids. The lace curtain Irish family across the street kicked their daughter out of the house when they found she was pregnant in the mid 60′s before relenting a couple months later. This before Roe v Wade. Who could blame women for resorting to it then, given the alternatives available? It was never a happy choice -let’s face it- just one bourne of terrible desperation.
Father, do you recall from that poll whether the women were answering the question post-abortion whether they believed it was murder, or whether they thought it was murder at the time they went in to the clinic? In other words, are they looking back and regretting their decision based on new insights/consideration that they did not have when they went in?
“I just read a few days ago about a woman in China who was only days away from giving birth that was forcibly removed from her home by the government to be given an injection to kill her baby.”
At least the Chinese have the decency to leave the victim with the comfort of knowing they had no choice in the matter; i.e. it wasn’t her fault. Not so the working American wife whose family would go under if she had to quit her job to attend to an infant.
Arn, its mental gymnastics to try to put forth a rebuttal to the situations you provided as they are not in the today (except for possibly the one about your family member) I am speaking about today, not yesterday. I can not speak to the specific times you mention in your examples. As far as taking time off work goes, I went to work right up to the end of my pregnancy. Why would pregnancy stop one from work? (Oh, I know, they were working physical labor right? all of them? even so, they could work for some time before that would be an issue) Again, I dont see your point. Aside from that, lets look at the others who abort not once, but many times. Some, even calling themselves christians or believers in something.
I have a few questions about that.
For those who defend abortion “rights” (not saying anyone here does either- this is simply a open question)
1)Do you believe in God?
2)Do you believe in objective moral law/ natural law?
3)Do you believe in objective truth?
4)Do you believe Christ entrusted authority here on earth to His Church?
Even one yes here gives us room to dialouge with someone rather easily. We dont ask these questions of course, out loud, but its easy to see if any of these things are “in the picture”.
If they are all no’s- then there is an obstacle in dialouge because the person (the protester) is making up their own subjective truths.
I am repeating I don’t belive anyone here is a abortion “rights” supporter, as I have no reason to nor do I imply it in my above post. I am simply putting forth an argument for all of us to pick apart for weakness in it, so I can see where the argument is weak or strong.
Couldn’t it be that some choices are properly viewed as “profoundly unwelcome,” precisely because of the gift of Natural Law? When a mother is faced with the unwelcome choice of whether to kill the child within her or live in (worse) poverty with the child, the choice is unwelcome for at least a couple reasons: (1) either way she decides, the mother’s future will be rough—neither decision will lead her to a great future, and (2) one of the choices violates what she inherently knows runs totally counter to her child’s human worth and dignity, i.e., it is murder. And counter to her own dignity as being born in the image and likeness of God — no one is born to murder.
In other words, that profoundly unwelcome feeling is healthy and a gift from God. It is there to tell us when we do something wrong.
“Thou shalt not murder”, or, “thou shalt not kill”
Not only the “unborn” Helen…
Because of my own convictions and just that Commandment,I am against any form of violence,be it in the name of God or in any other cause..
80% of the potential women who CONCIDER,abortion,do think that they have no choice..
I did not write; that 80% of abortions were carried through because they HAD no choice..
Ofcourse the women are looking for ‘alternatives’ any NORMAL person would.
You must surely hear that during your time at the clinic?
Why would these women seek help there otherwise??
Why do they not go to family (who I suppose have also heard of the 10 Commandments)?
These clinics,(and other institutes) are for some,the very last hope of help,the help they should receiving
from their FAMILY..
Do you really believe that more than 20-30% of women willfully get pregnant,and then “willy-nilly” decide to have an abortion??
If so,you do not have much faith in the female race,the Help that can be offered in Clinics and other places would be rendered fruitless.
There are very many women of all ages who are in dire difficulties,all they really do NOT need,is some well meanig person, comfortably situatated,explaining to them “how not to get knocked up” (bad choice of words,and coming much too late).
I only hope that you,and others here reading / visiting this blog,will never be (nor have been!!) in such a situation of helplessness..
For this reason much more must be done to help young parents to cope with all the difficulties involved in bringing up their children,to be able to *make the right choices* in all situations they may encounter..
‚Äúran the danger because of ignorance‚Äù;——- Becoming pregnant through “ignorance”.
Is another thing that many helpers hear in the “Pro-life” clinic,surely you must know that?
You write; “Well that one is much too tempting to touch so I will not be led into temptation to really go to town on that one”.
What would you alternatively do then? ignore it??
Even in our “enlightend day and age” there are so many younsters who ARE ignorant of the “facts of life”…
The neglect which I speak of is the cause of the first.. IGNORANCE.. as in,not being ‘properly’ educated in the bare facts… believe this or not I know for a fact that it is so.. I have worked for years with Children,and teenagers you would be surprised at the ideas they have about s*xual relations.. If it was not so terribly sad it could be amusing..
A little more uderstanding and pity,not just for the “unorn”,but also for the mother-to-be who is in MOST cases very distressed.. telling her he should not have goten herself “knocked up” in the first place,or that they are going to die and go to “Hell” would only drive them away and deeper into dispair..
That IS NOT the answer and nerver has been..
The Church /clergy has been threatening that for nearly 2000 years, just does not seem to have worked so far,does it?? Just as the Commandment you mention “thou shalt not kill”… well the killing still goes on, and is increasing among the youth, in both our countries.
We need to start “at home” helping the parents to get their authority back and stop relyng on the State to fix things.. before it is too late..
Sandra, in your estimation, would you say that, generally, there has been more “sox education” in the Western world than in the past, or less?
Tony, I don’t recall the details of the poll. This was in the 1980s, but my impression was that this was the view before-during-and-after of the women in question. As i recall, many of them were black or Hispanic.
No doubt, there is ignorance out there. But there are also a lot of people as knowing and experienced as they come – anything but ignorant – who get themselves in deep trouble in this area.
Tony’s question is an excellent one.
“the help they should receiving
from their FAMILY..”
Here the parents would more often than not be frog-marching their pregnant daughters to the clinic. The *grandparents’* choice IOW, not the mother’s.
About 15 years ago one state in the Midwest passed a law putting the financial burden for an unwed teens’pregnancy carried to term on the grandparents rather than AFDC. That was quickly changed when it was learned that the abortion rates went way up for this cohort when the grandparents opted for a quick trip to the clinic for their girls.
Sandra–In the US at least abortion rates have declined. This is attributed to not only fewer teens being s*xually active, but those who are and older women’s more reliable use of contr*ception and for older marrieds getting their tubes tied.
For instance the comprehensive “hygiene” education here in NYC is relentless in its stress on contr*ception and safe s*x, probably having a lot to do with the AIDS epidemic.(I’ve read my kids’ textbooks) At least here it seems to be finally getting through to the kids, a notoriously irresponsible population as we all know.
Relentless stress on contrac*ption and safe sox is “finally getting through to the kids”? I’m guessing I read that wrong, right?
Tony good question…
In the past (at least my generation) ‘piety’ borbade such ‘things’, you had to find out for yourself..
We were told “don’t do” but never WHAT exactly,nor WHY.
Today the world seems turned upside-down.. Too much is “in the open theater”..
But still no real deeper dialogue etween parent and child. It seems that they,as we,still have to find out for themselves..
Parents are today,not usually embarrased to talk of the matter of s*x (although that is still an issue),but are mostly of the impression that there is sooo much information out there, plus it is ‘taught’in school they take the easy way out, or are jut not sure how to aproach it in a natural way..Not ever having been
“educated” in the “how to”, mostly because THEY, had not experienced that in their own homes as children..
The present ‘coulture’ of drugs,drink,soxuality practically thrown in the faces of us all, not just our youth, has debased the very real meaning of the word.. it is either a joke or a “no no”..
Answer to your quetion;In the past less,now too much,but of the wrong kind..and in the wrong places, in my opinion.. This is why I sugested that the “parential education” should be taken more seriously..
After all THEY are the ones responsible for the future well being of their children..
One last (not quite earnest) thought; Has anyone thought about the fact,that it is in some cases more “difficult” to be eligible to have a dog than it is to have a child?? In many cases the prospective dog owner must show himself “resposible” and without a bad character,they even,in some instances have to go to a “dog training course”,have enough space for it to ‘romp’, the size of the kennel must be adequate,otherwise they are refused.. There is, such a law here in Germany, and in the UK.. The “irony” of this is just too comic..
I ofcourse DO NOT suggest this,in any way,for prospective parents.. However it only shows how little “esteem” is given to children in our society.. their ‘wellfare’ it seems ranges a little below that of a pet.
Tony–the message that it’s OK to be abstinent is apparently getting through as well.
Sandra, opinions are like rectums, everyone has one. Yours is not one I care a hoot about.
I should add that abstinence is urged as the ultimate precaution against STD and pregnancy. I’ve seen it in the textbooks.
ARN…
Exactly…
The “frog-marching” in sack and ashes I expect??…after the fact. Why not offer the help before hand..
Hit them where it hurts seemed to be the devise… the wallet!!
As you so rightly state the decline in abortions is mainly a result of the more widespread use of contrac*ption,the very obvious danger of AIDS,and other sox related deseases..
But,still there are too many,unplaned,unwanted pregnancies… this in my opinion is not only due to carelessness nor a “wayward” lifestyle.. but as I maintain to ignorance.. or to put it a little more subtlely..insufficiant knowledge of the soxual act and it’s conscequencies, also the fact that,they are irresposibe,because they see their “peers” behaving in just the same way..Not only where sox is concerned.
They find many examples of this behaviour,not only in their own parents,but in other persons of “repute”.
Damming China for it’s absolute disregard of human rights,and in the same breathe “begging” for ecconomical investment,buying the very products that are made (at a pittance) by those very same repressed poor Chineese workers.. Who is the “animal”, the one who has no moral standing from the start,or the “preditor” who with tounge in cheek “rage” against such actions,all the while sealing the deal on technology,export-import??
As Gordon Brown at this very moment is engaged in..
“Ah yes, the hypocrasy of the ‘grown-ups’ who want to preach to us about morals” they say.. not without cause I may add..
“it is ‘taught’in school they take the easy way out, or are jut not sure how to aproach it in a natural way”
I think things may be a little different between countries. There’s a program which is essentially mandated for United States Catholic schools, called Talking about Touching. Here’s a link to a website in our area which has worked hard to make sure people understand what this program actually teaches: http://www.primaryeducators.org/
It sounds like you’re looking for teachers to be more open and forthcoming. In the interest of modesty, I won’t paste the sample lesson plans here. But if you want to see what’s being taught, click on “Sample Lessons” on the left-hand side. Read what is being taught to 1st and 2nd graders, etc. They’re not skirting the issue. They really aren’t.
Is this the type of education you’re advocating? It really does “get it out into the open.”
For our part, we thank God there have been some alternatives allowed to using the program, but not without some tension. We are very fortunate that our parish school has been granted permission to use a much more suitable alternative program, Formation in Christian Chastity. You can check out those lesson plans via the link just a little lower on the left side.
Helen You are so very “colourful” in your rhetoric.. Have you taken a leaf out of Dre’ book, “text’s to use on the www”..?
You have by the way ommited to say which of “the two” you don’t care a hoot about..
“Tony–the message that it’s OK to be abstinent is apparently getting through as well.” So are you saying that you’re okay with artificial contrac*ption”? I’m confused and it just makes more sense if we at least know where each other is coming from.
Well Sandra, there’s plenty of info out there now. I really don’t know how much more can be done. Of course it’s no defense against being an idiot or feeling invulnerable. Just like 16 y.o. drivers regularly becoming grim statistics what with their “it can’t happen to me” attitude. That same mental state plus out of control hormones guarantee there will always be casualties in this age cohort.
Tony–I’m talking about the public health and the remedies to be used by fellow citizens who don’t believe s*xual relations should be forbidden to the unmarried. There are lots of them and we have to share a country with them, and so these alternatives are rightfully covered.
“I really don‚Äôt know how much more can be done.”
You said it sister! Amen. At least you live in the today and not the way back machine.
How about we all think about how close we are to seeing post natal abortion. Some argue that the “parasite” has no feeling. So, what is next- is we simply find the post born to be expendable due to mommy’s fear being a REALITY. We just use anethesia and the post natal parasite will not feel a thing.
Tony I will have a look at the link in a minute..
I must firstly say that I do not look for “teachers” to be more open and forthcoming,but for parents to be equiped,to take more active interest in all aspects of their children’ education,not only in the area we are discussing but in all others,being made more moraly resposible,and taken to task for the wrong doings (violence,drinking,and generally behaving badly) of their children.. ofcourse in many cases they need help themselves,this is my whole point.. ‘We’ tend to punish the child (the outcome of too early sox is an unwated / unintended pregnancy)whereas the parents, who have no control,or have lost control of their kids do not face the same “sentence”.. In this matter as in all things,the “prevention” is better than the “cure”.
My original point was really in response to the violent and over all unruley manner in which kids,teens and older, imagine that “this is the way”, this is “acceptable behaviour”, his is “how we gain attention”..
And only on the border did I intend to mention abortion,in response to Michelle’ account of her experience while taking part in a “Pro-life” Demo.. where even the well ment protest turnrd “nasty”..
A very current case is being discussed in the UK..Three teens battered to death in a drunken stuppor a father of three teenage daughters 8one of which was witmess).. The ringleader of the three was released on bail (for a violent attack on a person while under thee influence) ca’ two hours before the terrible murder.. How can this happen one asks? Where were his parents? why was he able to roam the streets? How did he get so much drink in such a short time? If an under-aged youth is released on bail for the charge of violence under the influence.. surely it goes without saying that the parents should take responsiblity for his behaviour during his time of bail?
You as a lawyer may have ideas on this.. I would be interested in your opinion..
By the way the widdow of the victim has been in contact with the organisation I mentioned earlier..
“Breaking the circle”..
I think what we are looking at is idolatry. The New Altar is a “bed”. The bowing of the knee- is not to Christ but to preform an act of selfish lust.
Yes, education is lacking. But, not in what every living being is exposed to on a daily basis, (therefore unable to claim “ignorance” of consequences) but in what they are not exposed to.
If in doubt, refer back to my 4 questions.
“The New Altar is a ‚Äúbed‚Äù. The bowing of the knee- is not to Christ but to preform an act of selfish lust.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUNfbgRJOe8
Bravo, Helen!
“If in doubt, refer back to my 4 questions.”
Amen!
The reasons why women turn to abortion, even despite believing they are carrying human life, are undoubtedly very complex. I think one of the reasons that so many women like the movies Juno and Knocked Up with their positive male heroes is because they deep down hope and pray that the man they love would stand by them and do the right thing should they be in a similar situation. I wonder if sometimes abortion is a manifestation of the despair felt by a woman when she finds out her guy seems unwilling to, or just won’t. The story in the New Yorker I linked to above gets at that a little bit (not that I’m trying to get you all to read it or anything). In it, the guy realizes what is really being asked of him. Here’s a quote form it– the author is David Foster Wallace, the story is called “Good People”:
“He knew it was wrong, knew something was required of him that was not this terrible frozen care and caution, but he pretended to himself he did not know what it was that was required. He pretended it had no name. He pretended that not saying aloud what he knew to be right and true was for her sake, was for the sake of her needs and feelings. He also worked dock and routing at UPS, on top of school, but had traded to get the day off after they‚Äôd decided together. Two days before, he had awakened very early and tried to pray but could not.”
Michelle,a truely touching story,leaving the reader with the (hope) knowledge that all “turns out well”..
The outcome of the story is heartening indeed..
It also however throws up a few interesting questions;
By all accounts it seems, the couple involved are religiously educated,their family life seems to be intakt..
They were aware of all the rules (including those on sox before marriage)..
The prospect of “Hell” did not seem to be such a hinderence to them(the boyfriend at least)..
The fact that they were “doing wrong” was clear..
What was missing..?
In his thoughts the young man ask’s, “He knew, in some locked-up little part of him, why it was that he‚Äôd gone to no one to open up and seek their life counsel, not Pastor Steve or the prayer partners at campus ministries, not his UPS friends or the spiritual counselling available through his parents‚Äô old church. But he did not know why Sheri herself had not gone to Pastor Steve‚Äîhe could not read her heart”..
You see,even here, a perfectly well educated, brought up in Christian values, young couple.. seem to not have the “courage” or the confidence to “open up” to their parents (and / or other’s).
One part of ‘him’ want’s the abortion,it seems though,that even the word does not come easily to him,he says instead “have it done”.. the other is afraid to admit it.
The young woman,is desperately awaiting an asurance of his “love” while knowing this will never happen,and even if it does,it will not be sincere..
In the end (or so it would seem) she takes the,hopefully right choice,without his help.. or because of the lack of such,she is the one who decides..they did not decide “together” as he would have liked,to think so.. would have “unburdened his guilty conscience” to ..
This story is one of many,all of which do not end so “happy”..
In this case the young woman seems strong and inependent,sadly a minority among the many,many young women is simmalar circomstances..
I am sure if the parents (I know this is a fictional story but true to life), were asked if they had any idea why their children did not come to them for support,they would be lost for words… It seems the “sox issue” had NOT been so “openly” discussed,and / or absence of “deeper dialogue”… Or??
Arn you write;
“Well Sandra, there‚Äôs plenty of info out there now”
You sure are right on that one….
But that is not really where it should be….It should be in the “home”,as that is where it is missing,plus,
the understanding that parents should be relating to their children;
“There is nothing,absolutely nothing,that you could do,that we can not discuss together,openly and in an atmosphere of TRUST”!!
This I have always told my children… untill now it seems to have bourne fruit..
Padre Nicolas ?® il nuovo Papa nero
15:05 CRONACHE Lo spagnolo, vissuto per anni in Giappone, eletto al secondo scrutinio. ?à il 29esimo successore di Ignazio di Loyola
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11298&size=A
Let us join tomorrow in prayer with the Pope.
I think the point of the story is that the boy needs the “push” he somehow knows the girl is about to deliver. She’s gambling as it says in the story on his being “good people” in order to get him to do the right thing. He, not really knowing his own mind, will let her take the lead.
Which was usually the case when I was in my twenties, that the women’s pregnancy would trigger formalizing the relationship of cohabitating couples, a happy ending proving that those “outlaws” were pretty traditional after all, even married in all but name. At least it looks that way from the vantage point now. This religious couple still lives in that older world.
Now the woman would just be told to get an abortion. How could she stand the sight of the SOB after that I can’t fathom.
“The outcome of the story is heartening indeed..”
Sandra– one of the most heartening things I found about it was that it was published in the New Yorker!
Let‚Äôs also remember in our prayers the new Superior General of the Jesuits, Fr. Adolfo Nicolas. Although he‚Äôs from Spain, he was ordained in Tokyo in 1967 and has been in Asia almost the entire past 40 years. He was quoted last year as saying “Asia has a lot yet to offer to the church, to the whole church.‚Äù
That quote struck me as a little strange. Why would he stress “the whole church”? Wasn’t it enough to just say “Asia has a lot yet to offer to the church”? I wondered why he seemed to be repeating himself.
Then I clicked the link which Josip provided, regarding joining with Our Holy Father in his Sunday Angelus. Josip‚Äôs link is from Asia News. At the top of the website is Pope John Paul II‚Äôs quote: ‚ÄúAsia, our common task for the Third Millenium‚Äù (from “Rise, Let Us Be On Our Way‚Äù).
Pope John Paul called Asia our “common” task, i.e., it is the work of all of us— in the words of Fr. Nicolas, Asia is of importance to the “whole” church.
I can’t believe this is a coincidence. Pope John Paul is calling all of us to look to Asia. Fr. Nicolas now says that Asia is important to all of us.
Thoughts?
Josip, the before and after was amazing! I should forward that to our pastor. We need the “after” as sadly, we have the “before” version. (glad you saw my point too)
ELECTED!
The conversation here is very interesting, but it may be time for a new post, given what Sandra reported above.
The following is from the Jesuit website jesuit.org.
“After four days of prayer and personal conversation known as murmurationes, the 217 Jesuit electors gathered in Rome from around the world have chosen Adolfo Nicol?°s, SJ as the 30th Superior General of the Society of Jesus.¬† He was the President of the Jesuit Conference of East Asia and Oceania and the former Provincial of Japan. He is now Father General to nearly 20,000 Jesuits worldwide, including 2,900 in the United States, and the 29th successor to St. Ignatius Loyola who founded the Jesuits in 1540….
“Father Nicol?°s was born in Spain, earned a degree in systematic theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, taught at the Sophia University in Tokyo, directed the East Asia Pastoral Institute in the Philippines, served as presiding secretary of the 34th General Congregation in 1995, and speaks five languages.¬† His visits to the United States have included stops at the Arrupe Experience, an annual preparation program for American Jesuits nearing ordination.¬†…
“For more information as it becomes available directly from the Curia, please visit http://www.sjweb.info.”
Helen, it¬¥s very delightful in my “neighborhood” (Deutschland).
http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2008/01/sickness-for-your-soul.html
Josip, I dont understand. How is that your neighborhood? I am not too swift today on the jokes- is that a joke?
Helen, Croatia is few miles far from German speaking lands (Austria and Germany). In my *first* post on the blog I have written: “I like German people because they were/are our (croatian) best friends”. Although Austria (that circus with the “mass” can be seen also in Austria) and Germany geographically, culturally and emotionally are my “neighborhood”, you have noticed that I have not problem to be a friend with *SINCERE* persons of all nations. Blood for me means nothing, everything is in a “heart” and “brain”.
Please pray for the repose of the soul of Fr. Reynaldo Roda who was killed by rebels south of our country.
Here’s the link: http://www.zenit.org/article-21508?l=english
On a happier note, our city is celebrating the Feast of the Santo Ni?±o de Cebu (Holy CHild of Cebu) today, the third Sunday of January. Viva Senyor Santo Ni?±o!
JA.Prayers for peace in your country,and ofcourse for Fa. Roda..
From the link you give;
“The movement of Abu Sayyaf (“Sword Bearers”) is associated with al-Qaida and is also active in the area. Their purported aim is to establish an independent Muslim state in the South Philippines”.
After hearing such news we may find hope in; Isaiah.2.:4 (The messianic kingdom)
“they shall turn their swords into ploughshares,and their spears into sickles:nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither sall they be exercised any more to war”
This is a promise given by God… we know it will happen……..
Let us pray that this promise shall be fullfilled soon .
JA– will pray for the repose of his soul at Mass this morning.
Dear J.A., I’ll be praying for Fr. Reynaldo.
A close friend of mine – a priest here in Rome – is about to return to the Philippines after five years here. He’ll be working at the seminary for older vocations in Manila.
Well, I was in St. Peter’s Square today, with a couple of hundred thousand other people to show our solidarity with the pope after he was unable to speak at the Sapienza University here in Rome. Before the angelus, the Holy Father gave a beautiful and brief meditation on the gospel of the day and on the octave of Christian unity we are living this week. Then he spoke about the Sapienza incident is very pacific and reconciliatory terms. It was a gorgeous, cloudless, chilly day, and the atmosphere in the piazza – tons of university students from Rome and beyond, chanting and carrying banners (one in English carried by some members of Comunione e Liberazione: “You’ll Never Walk Alone”) – was festive and joyful.
Just want everyone to know about this site if they need it for witnessing:
prenatalpartnersforlife.org
Please, if you can listen to the music by Karl Kohlhase
Just google it.
Here’s Joaquin Navarro-Valls on La Sapienza, via John Allen’s updates. It’s worth reading, for sure.
http://ncrcafe.org/node/1548
Yes Michelle, “worth reading for sure”
At tht begining of this discourse I wrote;
“What were they sooo afraid of? ‚Ķ‚Ķ. FREE Speech?? Is that not what *science* has always defended, demanded”?
I am still of that opinion.. Science can not have it both ways,or better still;
“free speech,….but only in agreement”
Errors have been made on both sides,this is surely why,not only “free speech”, but the willingness to “LISTEN”, to both sides, is so important,this we should have learnd from past *errors* intolerance prevails,but this time on the other side…………..
Pope Benedict XVI¬¥s speech for “La Sapienza – Universit?† di Roma”:
http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=7974&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=160483
A request from a friend..;-
“The March for Life is Tuesday, tomorrow–for those who can’t be in Washington, pray for those of us who’ll be walking down Constitution Avenue”!
Perhaps if pos. special prayer at 9:50am… for a person I ‘know’(widest sense) who will be speaking then..
Belated thanks to Michelle and Arn for the New Yorker story and the NYTimes article – both dealing with abortion (in very different ways) – which I’ve finally had a chance to read.
Finally read ARN’s link myself– she’s right, so upsetting.
Well, I just am really wondering now about abortion and the Church from the USA perspective here. Since we eliminated orphanages ……
and that is a good question as to the real reason we did eliminate them…..
we have essentially given many people more reasons to decide to have an abortion…
That’s a bit disturbing to me frankly. It smacks of hypocrisy.
Who eliminated orphanges and when? I hadn’t realized that there were no orphanages in the US. Has foster care been substituted for orphanages?
Possibly foster care has, Father. Here in Canada either foster care or group homes have been the case for a very long time, the thinking being that a family atmosphere is better for a child. As an employee in a group home (for intellectually handicapped adults) it is my firm belief that this family atmosphere is superior. My own grandmother provided foster care in the 50′s. In Canada, foster care is provided by both public and Catholic agencies. Various group homes are administered by various agencies, some church- affiliated (various denominations), some not.
Incidentally, there doesn’t seem to be much need to arrange care for newborns, since they are often adopted very quickly.
Like Canada, small group homes is the closest thing we now have to orphanages. These dreadful institutions started to get phased out once New Deal legislation was enacted, enabling mothers who couldn’t get by financially to receive government assistance. Prior to that she faced the difficult choice of consigning her children to orphanages until the mom could get back on her feet or keep them and depend on unreliable handouts from charity.
I dont know that I would call orphanages dreadful out of hand. There seems to be a lot of (now old) people who have had excellent things to say about their experience. Of course not all foster parents are wonderful either. At least with orphanages the children would still have their religious education ensured.
That used to be an important thing and part of Catholic identity in the world. Was it the new deal arn, or the tons of money shelled out for sinful parish priests (guilty ones- not all were guilty, and who knows how many were found guilty that were not) who should have been paying for their own legal defense as they did not take vows of poverty and have almost no expenses, but that does not help with the huge settlements much. No way around that one I guess. I don’t know but it is depressing to me and seems hypocritical most definately.
Michelle, saying a family atmosphere is better for some children, is fine but that is not reason enough to shut down all the orphanages.
“There seems to be a lot of (now old) people who have had excellent things to say about their experience. ”
I don’t doubt it, but it says more about how tragically limited their expectations were e.g. they at least got 3 hots and a cot vs. not knowing where their next meal was coming from. Maybe that was even enough for them to overlook the spiritually and emotionally corrosive impact of such a place.
Any,betterment on; under-stafed,under-financed,un-motivated,overcrowded,(religiously run or state run) “Orphanage” must be wellcome..
I (being one of the now old people) remember how it was when new “home” kids joined the class……..
The uniform never fitted,the shoes were old ‘hand downs’,even if not intentionally, they were made to feel “underpriviledged”… there were never any “arangements to come visiting” no “after school activities” for them… how could there be there would be no one to accompany them anywhere (other than to church) everywhere they went, it was in groups,absolutely no privacy.. no individuall hobbies… you name it the did not have it!!!! (things did get better but not so very much)
They kept to themselves and we kept our distance,I expect out of “awkwardness” and unthinking, cruel as it sounds it is fact…
Yes I expect there are a few who have excellent things to say about their “experience”.. but they are few and far between… Orphanages should be banned to the realm of… “Charles Dickens”
Thank goodness they seem to be
I just want to gag reading what you wrote Sandra. How very unchristian of you.
The catholic orphanage that was about 10 min drive from me, that shut down in the early 80′s (yes, it made it that long) had a large number of polish children in it. They did not have to go out of the building as they attended Mass every morning in the orphanage. So, no outsiders were giving them the look.
I guess communal living is an outrage for some. Likely the same ones find communal living of monastics an outrage also. The polish mothers that could not afford to keep their children felt that at least, their child was with “family” and, we seem to forget that in today’s day and age that one can not say they believe in the communion of saints, and spend all sorts of time trying to emulate saints when they neglect the family at “home” ie: the church millitant. Some of these mothers who had their child baptised catholic, felt that at the very least, they could count on the child to be raised as such. They made a vow to God at the baptism to have the child raised catholic. Vows to God are serious. I cant believe how little people think of vows.
My impression, Helen, is that orphanages were phased out long before the Church had to shell out money for misbehaving priests.
I don’t think, though, that demonizing orphanages makes much sense. It would be good to hear from someone who actually was in one (Babe Ruth, for instance). Even if Michelle is correct in her belief in its superiority, foster care is certainly no miracle cure either. Abuse occurs there too. If memory serves, the fellow who went on the shooting spree in the mall not long ago – provoking some acid commentary from Mr. Arn – was in and out of foster care. Would that kind of shuttling have occurred with a child in an orphanage? I don’t know.
Just think of all the Espositos of the world (including, for our northerners and all hockey fans) Tony and Phil – who owe their existence to some foundling (“exposed” – esposito) who grew up, perhaps in an orphanage (probably around Naples), and raised a family of his own. Is it possible that orphanages were the best available solution – at least in some cases in the past?
By the way, I was speaking of the US and how this matter effects Catholics in the US and the connection to abortion – sandra you are neither in the US or catholic, so your two cents are not relevant as usual.
I see your point Father, it just breaks my heart this whole thing- is all. We must be a light to the world.
I should clarify my remark above– it is my firm belief, *all other things being equal*, that a family atmosphere is preferable– perhaps foster care, perhaps a group home. Abuse is always a risk where vulnerable populations are concerned, no matter what type of care is involved. It wasn’t my intention to demonize orphanages in my comment above, just to explain why there aren’t so many around in Canada any more– sometimes they are the best that a group or a government can do, and certainly they can provide excellent and humane care. Thinking here of the third world, where various groups, religious or otherwise, are trying to help as many people as they can. And there are also situations in my own area of employment where individuals requiring support simply aren’t suited to a group home or foster care, because of physical needs or dangerous behaviours. I worked as a student for a couple of summers in one such place– a great deal of respect for the individuals we supported, and as much of a home-like atmosphere as could be achieved. We need to pray for all such institutions and arrangements (orphanages, foster care, group homes) and for the children and adults they serve.
Helen–My guess is that if a pregnant woman knew that chances were her child would be consigned to an orphanage, she’s be even *more* likely to resort to abortion. Probably back in the day the orphanage was the best that could be offered to the indigent but now people expect more, and rightly so.
An interesting point in this link below kinda ties together the abortion discussion and the La Sapienza discussion– it seems young people are becoming increasingly pro-life, and science is to blame!
http://www.firstthings.com/blog/2008/01/22/roe-at-35-part-vi/
OK, I’m meandering but all this talk reminds me of a friend’s situation who adopted a girl (They’re ALL girls given the Chinese preference for boys) from China and her return a couple years ago with her adoption group to show the girls their “roots”, as appalling as that sounds.
She signed on when adopting 14 years ago to a required 2 week tour of the country with her adoption agency group (the goal for the Chinese being to squeeze as much hard currency as possible from these do-gooders-more further down) before picking up the baby in a *filthy*, badly kept orphanage, where the children considered adoptable were separated from those consigned to be put out to work when they were teenagers. The former supposedly better treated, which wasn’t saying much. It’s notable that every step of the way *somebody’s palm had to be greased* (in benjamins), none of it ultimately going to the support of that orphanage but all funds siphoned away on one pretext or another. My friend was horrified at the conditions and the corruption. She and her party existed to be fleeced, no thought given to the welfare of the babies who only existed apparently to enrich others firmly esconsced in the local order of big shots to profit from this scheme.
Her return with the group 12 years later showed how much China had changed, but still female babies were still being abandoned in railroad stations since the gov’t only allows 1 child/family–if it’s a girl abandon it and try again. My friend saw a carpet factory using young girls many of whom came from orphanages, and felt that she had rescued her daughter from that.
You meander wonderfully, Arn.
ARN I can only say that everything your friend reports is correct..
As you know Ivano’s cousin adopted a child (girl ofcourse) from Srilanka,(I sent you, and others a photo once)She is now 16yrs,her name is Eva…
They were reccommended by a Catholic agencey in Venezia (Venice,where they live)..
They had to spend between 45-50days in that country, and it cost a small fortune,which as you say was not used for the benefit of the remaining children there..
Ofcourse they could have ‘opted’ for an Italian child,but the reports of the squallor in which those children lived,and the hopelessness of their future,so toucheed their hearts that they decided as they did..
Orphanages,are in those countries a sad nescessity,not so in our “western civilization” one would think..
As Michelle rightly states there are certain circumstances,where a “home” is the ‘better# choice,for medical reasons,also in some cases to protect the person and others..where the have special needs. Of these we were not refering…
I think we’d all agree that a well-organized adoption system would seem to be the ideal solution. As Helen says, we should be a light to the world on this point, and with the prayers that Michelle recommends, we probably can do a lot better. After all, one of the striking things about the first Christians was that they did not abandon children – a fairly common practice in the Roman empire (as in China and elsewhere today). The more things change, the more they stay the same (as they say in Montreal!).
Helen you write in your last comment, among other things, the following;
“They did not have to go out of the building as they attended Mass every morning in the orphanage. So, no outsiders were giving them the look”.
How very ……. convenient…… and rewarding. Yes!! “excellent” even!!!
Further;-
“sandra you are neither in the US or catholic, so your two cents are not relevant as usual”.
Your opinion,comments,as ever………priceless
Sandra, who abused you s*xually – Cannon Monk or Fr. (no name) Mc Bride?
____________
SANDRA, YOU ARE THE LAST TRASH!!!
Father, you are correct about Roman pagans. They literally would place the child on the floor, and when?if the father would “inspect” the child from there- he would show acceptance by “raising the child up” off the floor! This is where we get that term raising a child from. Learned that one from a former pagan now Catholic and has a ministry to reaching pagans.
He has interesting opinions on abortion also, and is a very good defender of the human life in the womb.
I did not know that mainline protestants since 1950 except for southern baptists (more like late 70′s I think for them) have endorsed abortion rights. Learning. I thought all christians were opposed to it from day one onward. Its a no brainer.
So, it seems some people have the mind that their idea of quality of life, must be imposed on a child…
and I hope that does not mean that the same people think those children are better off scraped out of the womb? I guess it shouldnt surprise me if that is the fact but I will say it makes me want to get very sick just thinking it and I think its no different than assiting in murder to take that position.I would have been grateful to live in an orphanage and live (also get a better education than I did get) then never had been given a chance to live at all.
Puke coming up again…
Actually, I think some people are looking like pampered brats to me right now.
Josip, I am not sure how your feelings are in this matter, but I am very interested. I am pretty upset about it all.
Helen, my opinion is equal to your and to Church´s teachings and you say it clearly. You do not have to be upset about anything, especially when someone who is not worthy to kiss the ground where you walk make evil comments about you.
Josip,
I dont get upset by her comments, as we know in the bible it says we will be mocked. Spit on, ect. I look at it as a blessing to share with Jesus in this manner. However small her spitting is and off target. She thinks she spits at me, when she is spitting at CHRIST.
Helen–My guess is that if a pregnant woman knew that chances were her child would be consigned to an orphanage, she’s be even *more* likely to resort to abortion. Probably back in the day the orphanage was the best that could be offered to the indigent but now people expect more, and rightly so.
NOT THIS MOTHER!
I take my vow to God very seriously! If for some reason I would not be able to care for my child (perish the thought) I would take great pleasure in knowing at least my vow to bring her up in the faith would be upheld!
I would not REGRET a thing leaving her in a catholic orphanage! She would get an education and she would also still be taught the faith! I dont give a flip about material things, and if she did not have that, but had her FAMILY (CHURCH MILLITANT) taking care of her, I would be very happy indeed!
How I would feel if something happened if she was not brought up in the faith…..
Dear God, please spare me this pain!
ARN at cruising speed in the middle lane of an unspecified Interstate in her 10 y.o. Ford wagon, once delightfully cool and “with it”, but now a pathetic admission of a middle age still encumbered with dependent-and barely behaved- minor children. Oh Yes! The *children*!!! ARN snaps out of a fantasy (anything, *anything*, not to deal with the bland circumstances of her life) starring the recently dead Heath Ledger and is reluctantly brought into the clear and unforgiving daylight of reality.
What on Earth is going on back there? What’s *this*??? “Your 2 cents are irrelevant”, “So who (unspeakably) abused you”, an implicit “You don’t know what you’re talking about” followed by “this is making me wanna hurl”. ARN impulsively pulls the wheel to the right before signaling. The drawn-out outraged sound of a horn receding; squealing brakes; the air horn of an 18 wheeler in the right lane unaccustomed to gutsy drivers. But ARN arrives safely on the shoulder with a deftly executed last-minute application of the brakes before careering into an overpass support.
“OK kids!, She says over her shoulder with the most “I-am-totally-not-kidding” expression she can muster. The G–D— car doesn’t budge until You. Cut. It. Out!!!
Ooops! I forgot. The last paragraph should read initially “ARN effortlessly morphs from the 30 y.o. fully s*xualized and integrated person she once was into the stern Mama Bear persona.”
Helen- You and me both. I would never dream of having an abortion. I’ve had 6 live births and 2 miscarriages-one at 18 weeks which surprised me at how emotionally grueling it was. But I’ve never really been tested. Many people are not as lucky as I’ve been and have been forced to make *very* difficult choices where none of the options are good. Those people are deserving of some compassion.
I am not uncompassionate for murderers ARN. They must have been very if not totally mentally unstable to make the choice to murder.
Their ignorance- if in fact it was ignorance- may save them. And, as to your comments about sandra- she is a non trinitarian. She is not a christian in any stretch of the imagination.
ARN- guess what? Josip was not wrong to confront her lies either. A liar is a liar. Plain and simple.
ARN, I give you most respect for your admirable and much more christ-like approach to this, but I am sorry, you can not say she is ignorant. That would be the only admissable excuse. And, unlike her- I will say she is not ignorant. This is why she will be damned until she changes her tune. Lest she try the ignorance card.
“I don’t doubt it, but it says more about how tragically limited their expectations were e.g. they at least got 3 hots and a cot vs. not knowing where their next meal was coming from. Maybe that was even enough for them to overlook the spiritually and emotionally corrosive impact of such a place.”
That seems pretty cynical, ARN. Helen makes the point that there are those who have some good things to say about their experiences in orphanages, and you explain it away by them just having such low expectations, and refusing to acknowledge any spiritual and emotional benefit they may have received there.
Couldn’t it be that some people were just amazingly grateful of the gifts of 3 hots and a cot that they were receiving— especially when they had no way to provide for themselves? Like manna from Heaven.
As to the point about “spiritually and emotionally corrosive impact of these places,” that definitely wasn’t always the case. There was a world-famous orphanage in my hometown before I was born – actually just 1 block from my house. It was started by Father (now Servant of God) Nelson Baker. He helped tons of people. I suspect many of the orphans were reunited with their families after a time. But I personally knew several men who were lifetime “Father Baker Boys” as they were called. Left on the orphanage steps, Father took them in and cared for them all. My gym teacher for 8 years was a Fr. Baker Boy (I went to the grammar school alse started by Fr. Baker); my high school math teacher was one, too. Two of my neighbors also. And here’s the thing: they all remained practicing Catholics—devout, wholesome, good natured, Catholics—till the day they died. And they didn’t go around like Father Baker preachers or anything. They were really just your average folks. But if you asked them, they’d tell you how great it was living there. I heard it myself from their own mouths.
Here’s a link to the National Shrine of Our Lady of Victory Basilica which he also built:
http://www.ourladyofvictory.org/Basilica/Welcome.html. The info on Father Baker and the orphanage and protectory can be found by clicking on “Father Baker Information” at the bottom.
“I dont know that I would call orphanages dreadful out of hand. There seems to be a lot of (now old) people who have had excellent things to say about their experience. Of course not all foster parents are wonderful either.”
My youngest 3 were in 4 “foster-care placements” in the first 5 months after being taken from their birth parents. The first one was a foster-care home that was licensed but had never had a placement before. We don’t know the details but, when the county worker came for the 1-week check-in, she was so “displeased” that she immediately removed the children. They were then put into another first-time home. SAME EXACT THING! One week check-up and she couldn’t believe what she was seeing. She took them out, on the spot. (The next two placements were with extended family— technically “foster-care” but not really. In fact, one family member sacrificed greatly taking them in on a temporary basis b/c she couldn’t stand having the kids go through this ordeal—this was all on the heels of being taken from their birth parents, after all.)
So, when Helen says “not all foster parents are wonderful either,” I am totally in agreement.
Tony–I’m not saying that there aren’t exceptions, but note that the OLV no longer can be called an “orphanage*, since it, along with other charitable institutions, have abandoned that model in favor of the more beneficial group home/foster care model. Why?
In the 19th C when Fr Baker built his institution, he pioneered direct mail fund-raising acc. to the website. Perhaps he was equally enlightened in his administration of the orphanage and care for the boys. Or maybe he just had more funds from his revenue-raising activities to do the job well. So it could well be that within that format he did better than his peers and generated fewer of the damaged people that it’s been amply documented such set-ups tend to produce.
And I don’t mean to dismiss your kids’ negative experience with foster care. Any set-up looking good on paper can be badly run. But as a model for the care of the abandoned or indigent child, foster care is superior to the orphanage. It’s no accident we don’t see them anymore in this country.
The degree of oversight required to make sure all children in state or agency care are looked after properly is huge. I remember when the orphanage abuse scandal was breaking in the 80s and 90s up here– at the same time there were also some notorious foster care abuse cases. And yet, like the anecdotes Tony tells above about the orphanage he knows of, I’ve met a couple of foster parents (besides my grandmother) and known a couple of foster kids and the stories there are of love and heroism. I’ve also read in the paper of some cases of foster kids being removed against their own protests from foster homes for ridiculous reasons, where anyone with any common sense could see that there was no abuse or neglect. On the one hand, state oversight is necessary– in my line of work there is tons. Protocols, paperwork, reports, timelines for what’s reported to whom and when, depending on the incident. On the other hand, state oversight can bring with it an infringement on moral choices. From what I’ve read, this is becoming an issue with some Catholic adoption agencies in the US, in those states where same- s*x marriage is legal. I don’t think we’ve seen that happen here in Canada, yet.
One thing for sure– any society that holds the lives of the unborn cheaply will eventually come to hold other life cheaply as well, and I think that government social services in western society (necessary though undoubtedly imperfect b/c of human frailty) will ultimately break down without a change in abortion law. I mean, why take care of a handicapped kid when genetic testing is available, right?
Excuse my ignorance here, but – for most cases – why not simply promote adoption much more aggressively. It seems to be common sense that living in a family is, taken as a model, better for a child than living in an orphanage, taken as a model. I guess I’ve never given this much thought… but, if orphanages have inherent limtiations, why not go straight for adoption? Just to be clear: I’m not asking these questions in a rhetorical or challenging sense. I’m interested in knowing the answers.
Lots and lots of problems–1)Many foster care cases have the goal of reuniting the family once the parents get back on their feet or (often the case)get their drug problems under control, so adoption’s out of the question.
20 Many potential adoptees are older and non-white and perhaps psychologically damaged. The number of adoptive parents who feel up to the challenge is limited. Healthy white infants will always be preferred.
Also, many profoundly handicapped children are simply not considered “adoptable”. Furthermore, kids like this in Canada normally get a higher level of day-to-day care if they remain wards of the province– 24 hr support in a group home with staff trained to support them, special equipment, etc. If they were in their own homes, their parents (or adoptive parents) wouldn’t get that level of help. They would only be eligible for so many hours per week of government-provided care (say nursing or personal support)– and this is surely difficult, parenting someone who requires 24 hour care, or is physically violent, especially if there are other people in the house. To pay for this privately is extremely expensive. There have been cases of parents giving up legal custody of their own children in order to get them the assistance they need. This is surely ridiculous— it should be the other way around, but it would be very expensive for taxpayers.
Something else to consider here is the fact that some adoptions of older kids fail– the kids get sent back. This is heartbreaking. It’s all so difficult, so many prayers are needed.
Thanks. That all makes lots of sense.
From what Arn is saying, it looks as though foster care often does what, in another day and age, the larger extended family would have done: take the kid for a while. The seriously handicapped kids that Michelle refers to are clearly a special case.
The model for the care of the child– abandoned/indigent/disabled/healthy/genius, etc. — is that the care be grounded in Christian love- pure and simple. It isn‚Äôt a question of foster care vs. orphanage‚Ķvs. growing up in a king‚Äôs castle vs. growing up in a homeless shelter, for that matter. None of these is superior to the others, in and of themselves. Holy men and women have come from all of these social backgrounds.
I think this explains why some of the orphanages were so well-loved and some so despised; and why some foster-care facilities and group homes are loved currently and some are loathed. Father Flanagan’s Boys Town and Father Baker’s Homes of Charity still have enduring admirers because they were rooted in the love of God, and that love was always transmitted to those in their care. Those orphanages that either lost their Christian focus or never had it in the first place, all ended up in the garbage heap of history with no one batting an eye.
It will be the same for foster care homes and group homes, but they’ll garner less notice since they aren’t generally as well-known places.
Quick clarification: I’m not being clerical here. I am not suggesting dismissing out-of-hand those parts of our culture that aren’t rooted in the love of Christ. For example, I’m perfectly fine going to a restaurant run by a non-believer—as long as the food is well-prepared. I don’t really care (colloquially speaking) if the guy fixing my flat tire is a believer— but I do care that he takes his tire-fixing seriously. Raising a child is qualitatively different. Raising a child without recourse to God just isn’t right.
ARN, as you read this, please remember that I’m the one who hooked you up with TWO locations in your area to get some poutine. So please remember that I’m really not trying to be antagonistic here—just respectfully disagreeing. That said…
“So it could well be that within that format he did better than his peers and generated fewer of the damaged people that it’s been amply documented such set-ups tend to produce.”
There’s that cynicism again. You’re probably right about him doing better than some of his peers but I doubt he did better overall than Fr. Flanagan at Boys TownРnow that’s healthy competition. And I’m sure there are a few more of these success stories.
Earlier, I pointed out that Helen knew people who had pleasant memories of their orphanage experiences and you had blown them off as, essentially, not knowing that things really weren’t as good as these people thought. So then, I bring up the folks I know who were raised by Father Baker—a man whose cause for canonization is in process, and you dismiss these people, too, saying that maybe his business acumen generated “fewer damaged people” than his peers.
I have to tell you, one could get the impression there isn’t a success story out there that you won’t distrust.
Father, I found your blog by accident by looking for the YSI sites.. You are all into a very interesting conversation. If I may, I’d like to chime in as an adoptee who has been active for quite some time on these issues.
I was in an orphanage back in the late 60′s before the infamous Roe decision of 73. I still consider myself a survivor because back alley abortions were quite prevelant in CHI town where I am from.
Orphanages were set up because they had homes for unwed mothers back when. Catholic Charities provided the majority of care for those less fortunate. Today- we have the government doing that and Charities are being outrun by our very own- socialized medicine, govt welfare programs..etc.. NONE of these things were available post WWII until the early 70′s.
Foster care was a government solution to the crisis of the overburdened welfare systems. Most orphanages were not run by secular organizations but religious ones. As Religious orders declined, so did their money, and charities were in crisis.
As the welfare need increased for unwed mothers- the gov’t got into the business of adoption because the religious were overburdened by the unintended pregnancies and faced severe monetary shortages. Now foster care is primarily run by govt agencies and Catholic Charities “collaborates” to place these children. As we saw in the cases in Boston, Catholic Charities was forced out of adoptions/foster care because they would not place children in homosexual homes. PBJC!
The gov’t in the US has undermined the adoption system by partnering with charitable organizations and forcing many Catholic agencies out of adoption placement. The agencies that are left work with the govt on the state level to place the children in the “system”. It very rarely happens that a young unwed girl walks into Catholic charities and asks to place her unborn child for adoption. We just dont see that any longer.
The problem now is that the agencies whcih are springing up out there are in a money making scheme. Adoption is BIG business- it is no longer for the well-being of our children.
Catholic Charities has been plagued with this problem for several years now and they dont do nearly as many placements as they used to. There are no religious sisters to run the centers, the children are being placed via public agencies.
But there is hope.. Many of the Crisis Pregnancy centers ARE in FACT aligning themselves with ethical agencies. More women chose to PARENT their children rather than give up for adoption. Crisis pregnancy centers make sure of that through outreach such as project Gabriel. The girls rec’v information on adoption, but the majority parent their children and the CPC helps them do just that….
The majority of children being placed today are not in fact newborns, they are women who birthed and can not take care of their children and have been taken away from the state. But, the women who do chose adoption are more likely to NOT go to an agency and instead choose either Open adoption via a private lawyer or through a specialized agency.
Adoption is a very viable option, it always has been. But the children that are in foster care are primarily there because a parent has either refused to parent or the child has become a ward of the state due to lack of parenting.
The failure right there is that when women who WANt to parent dont have the means or the ability to do so, the govt abandons them and they dont give them the means by which to parent their children. that is why it is easier to promote abortion rather than have girls parent an unintended child. The system enables women to fail and ultimately the children become a ward of the state.
What these women need is the ability and the means to provide for their children. The govt doesn’t do that, but the CPC’s through the work of lay volunteers truly give girls the means to be a wonderful parent by providing them with shelter, food, means for job.
Do check out the Gabriel projects that are run in your Diocese. Go volunteer at a Crisis pregnancy center. These girls deserve the best of the best because they chose LIFE! Help them to succeed! Make a meal, donate clothes, offer to babysit, help find them a job. Be their support system.. Let them know that their child is a gift from God and that we will NOT abandon them in their hour of need!
As our Founder has said…
“Charity, which is like a generous overflowing of justice, demands first of all the fulfilment of one’s duty. The way to start is to be just; the next step is to do what is most equitable…; but in order to love, great refinement is required, and much thoughtfulness, and respect, and kindliness in rich measure. In other words, it involves following the Apostle’s advice: ‘carry one another’s burdens, and thus you will fulfil the law of Christ’. Then indeed we shall be living charity fully and carrying out the commandment of Jesus.”
Pax…
http://www.boystown.org/parents/index.asp
“At Boys Town, we realize the future of America lies with the ability of our children to grow up strong and healthy. We continue to look for ways in which we can not only improve the way America cares for her children, but also help parents strengthen and establish the foundation of support necessary to empower the next generation. With a history steeped in helping others, our mission and vision are still strong and will continue to grow with the support, understanding and assistance of those who care most for their children: parents.”
This statement seems to underline my original comment “parential education”…
As far as I know,Father Flanagan did not use the term “orphanage”, for his “Boys Town”, as most of his boys were not orphans.. many (ever increasing numbers) were sent to him by the judicial services… ofcourse there were “ophaned” children among them.. His greatest wish was to find Families,to adopt or foster, those he had taken into his care..
http://www.boystown.org/news/headlines/121207NewBrand.asp
http://www.boystown.org/aboutus/letters/Boes8-01.asp
My comment to the above link is “awaiting moderation”
In the mean time here the link I included in it..
http://www.boystown.org/parents/index.asp
These statement seem to underline my original comment “parential education”…
OK Tony. Can we at least agree that all things being equal, i.e. the care of the children charged to a staff that is supportive and whose source of strength to do this difficult job is Christian love, that that very support and love would tend to go a longer way in a group home/foster care model than the other? After all, the people running the Baker institution apparently agree, as the orphanage has been phased out. Perhaps they witnessed some unhappy outcomes you and I could never know about and agreed with social workers that a switch to the more modern system was in order.
Come to think of it, there are Catholic institutions and there are Catholic institutions as well. Remember the orphanage in Newfoundland that turned out to be a pedophile Paradise, run by the Christian Brothers? I don’t doubt their mission statement at the time included all sorts of uplifting sentiments about Christian love. They got away with it a long time IIRC until one of the abused boys blew the whistle on that little horror.
Given the recent Scandal too, a bit of not cynicism, but skepticism, is the prudent thing.
Well– I was googling around, b/c this morning’s trip to the children’s hospital eye doctor for my youngest daughter (the former preemie) resulted in a prescription for glasses. I’m trying to find some kind of device or clip for the microphone for her cochlear implant so that the combination of glasses and mike won’t be too awkward. Came upon an American webpage and discovered that Boy’s Town National Research Hospital has a cochlear implant centre. Yay Fr. Flanagan!
I thought of you while reading that Michelle, hope they can help… toi toi toi… as we say here
Mom of 8, Nice to see you on the blog,I hope we will hear more from you..
You make very interesting and objective points..
It seems that it is the lack of help for families,compassion and disoncern in general, that is the at the root of the problem.
I agree that much more must be done,as you say, we all can help in various ways..
You are so right that these girls need the best help they can get, I am sure if families were recieving help in the first place,much despair could be avoided..
Thankyou for your comment..
Thinking about Mom of 8′s comments above– and also about some newspaper columnists I’ve read lately. In the mainstream media, I’ve rarely(if ever) seen any kind of outrage expressed over a lack of services to support young mothers in crisis. I’ve read, instead, columns outraged about abortion wait times, and recently some columns lamenting the movies “Juno”, “Bella” and “Knocked Up” b/c they’re afraid they encourage teens to proceed with pregnancies. I’m guessing they may think that the presence of crisis pregnancy centres will encourage more young women in difficult situations to choose life. And now I’m wondering– in North America, are all/most of the crisis pregnancy centres only those with some kind of religious/pro-life affiliation? I’m thinking of Feminists for Life on various U. S. campuses, trying to set up crisis pregnancy help for undergraduates because it is lacking, of Birthright here in Canada and some other agencies I know of in my own city… Does anyone her know? If I didn’t have to get supper started, I’d start googling around to try and find out myself….
Michelle,perhaps dcMichelle’ sister (who I know is involved in pro-lofe suportive centres) could be of help..I expect you have Michelle’ e-mail address,if not I could send it to you…
And you are right,there seems to be “outrage funds” enough for the “abortion clinic”,but money does not flow so easily for helping the “mother-to-be” keep her child, without dire finacial,and emotional problems..
It is in the end effect,not who ie’ religious and / or feminist’s for life, that help these women,but that they be helped.. don’t you think? And ofcourse with understanding,compassion and most of all real “hands-on” help and advice..about how they can cope after birh…This should, in the best scenario, of course involve the whole family..
Michelle,
You are right.. Most CPC’s are either religiously affiliated- The many Catholic one’s I know DO NOT offer contraception as an alternative. They teach either the Creighton (NaPro) or NFP models only. They have parenting clases, a clothing closet, families that are willing to take a girl into their home and so on.
The Christian Centers do offer birth control , but we are seeing a change here in the US with many protestants being educated about the benefits of NFP and they are truly embracing it.
Here in the US too, many parishes have adopted Pregnancy centers. They have monthly drives for clothing, formula, baby items and so on. Or they have set-up boxes in the vestibules for quick drop off.
So many women are being helped and their lives are being truly enriched. The government will not support them once they have had the baby- if they do, I can tell you, living in the welfare systen is not a pretty site. The housing is less than favorable and honestly, once you are sucked into that system with no REAL help, it is extremely difficult to get out of.
There are so many negative temptations for these girls in this type of situation that it becomes a vicious cycle for them and their children. It is best that they go to Charitable organization where people are compassionate and truly LOVE these young women.
We know how difficult it is for us everyday in this secular culture to stay on the straight and arrow. To see Christ in each person and to do everything in love. We are faithful, prayerful and follow the way. These girls don’t have that. they have no sense of right and wrong. It is up to us to help them stay out of that world and do what we can- both spiritually and physically. They need to also learn to put on the battle armor and fight for a just society. We are Church Militant and we must continue to fight these battles daily.
Working or volunteering in the pro-life circles is not an easy task. I have had many downs but many many more ups. It is emotionally draining at times and I truly have felt like the Sorrowful Mother at the foot of the Cross. That is my mortification.
Standing on the sidewalk in front of the abortion mill, seeing these girls and women walk in- and KNOW that they will come out with what seems like less of a burden. But SO many girls have been helped. SO many girls just want to be loved- for someone to care, for someone to hold their hand- for someone to cry to. How can a system that supposedly is so concerned about the welfare of its citizens, abandon such a poor helpless child..
Some are called to this like of work. I have always felt called to help in this area. Though now, my time is taken up by a growing family and I dont get out there as often as I should, I pray for the success of those on the sidewalks, I pray for the girls and their unborn so that by the prayerful witness the families and counselors on the sidewalk.. Just ONE, ONE woman will change her mind…
We can’t be complacent and do nothing… We must be involved in some capacity in the pro-life movement, in reaching out to those in most need..
FAther.. off topic..
Is the prelature going to train their seminarians in the Tridentine Rite in the near future? You all are quite fluent in Latin, I was just curious if the TLM was anywhere in the future vision..
I don’t know of any plans for that, but – as you say – it wouldn’t be particularly difficult, since all the priests of the Prelature are already comfortable celebrating the Mass in Latin. I have never celebrated the Tridentine Mass… or even seen it celebrated.
The North American College is making a special effort to train the seminarians to be able to celebrate the extraordinary form of the Mass when neeeded. Its not, technically speaking, a rite; there is only one Latin Rite, which has two forms – one ordinary (the Novus Ordo) and one extraordinary (the Tridentine form).
Mom of 8–You comment just surfaced and is very interesting. I’m not that familiar with the inner workings of CBCs, just assuming they cobbled together help to enable the girl to continue the pregnancy, including govt benefits. You mention the mothers’ abandonment by government but can’t there be a staff member very savvy in getting these benefits to your clients? Obviously Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) comes to mind, the WIC program too, and I’m sure there are more I’m not aware of. AFDC is as dispiriting as you say it is, but if the girl is in contact and counseled by the CDC perhaps the experience could be beneficial. It does provide some support however stingily as you know. IOW you could get it on your terms if you look into it.
A little aside–I used to live in a heavily Hasidic Jewish area in which a surprising amount of poverty exists. They are no fools however and had somebody ( an “omsbudman”, a woman as it happened))research every possible govt benefit for their people and walked the Hasidic clients through the paperwork since many were unable to do it themselves, as well as representing them if the bureaucracy challenged them. From what I saw, the negative social consequences of receiving govt help (which are so evident elsewhere) were minimized by the community being the middleman. Maybe the CDC’s can take a leaf from that book.
If govt help is not forthcoming I can see mush of the burden falling on the grandparents who may come to resent it.
Just a question–do you try to persuade the parents to marry if they are living together and seem mature enough? Just curious.
I saw “Juno” again with SK yesterday. I see that the most unrealistic part of the movie was the parents being as supportive as they were. I would think most parents would strongly urge their daughters to go through with the abortion, even forcing them.
In fact, doesn’t Catholic Charities already do this? I should know about this since i used to work for an agency that dealt indirectly with them, but it’s been a long time…
You may well be right about that part of Juno being unrealistic, ARN. On the other hand, it is in keeping with the hopeful tone of the narrative. The part of the movie that rung a little false for me was the blunt and graphic way the teenagers talked about s*x. I mentioned this to my 19 year old and he agreed with me– it is unusual for conversation among teenagers to be that raw– there is, I think, a natural modesty that kicks in even in kids who don’t have a religious upbringing. But that stuff was mostly at the beginning of the movie, when most of the very few false notes were hit.
” The government will not support them once they have had the baby- if they do, I can tell you, living in the welfare systen is not a pretty site. The housing is less than favorable and honestly, once you are sucked into that system with no REAL help, it is extremely difficult to get out of” (Mom of 8)
I absolutely agree with you there. My first job out of university was with the city welfare department, in the office that provided funding to anyone financially and medically eligible for a few hours of nursing/homemaking help each week, up to a certain number of hours. Many of the clients were single moms who had just given birth. I’d never want to live in some of the assisted housing I’ve visited in that capacity. It takes extraordinary fortitude to pull oneself out of a situation like that. I’ve also met single moms in my own current line of work who are working 2 jobs (juggling various shifts) while taking courses. These admirable young women have support, though– if not from family, then from some faith community.
oops — I meant Mom of 8 above– I put the bracket too close to the 8 and it came out as a smiley emoticon.
And last– Canadian ethicist Margaret Somerville on abortion in Mercatornet:
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/abortion_giving_new_life_to_the_debate/
“The part of the movie that rung a little false for me was the blunt and graphic way the teenagers talked about s*x. ”
Yes. Didn’t you want to take the store clerk (1st speaking scene) by the shoulders and shake him? And Juno as well. That conversation was too much.
ARN–YES!!! That actor was still playing his regular character “Dwight” from “The Office.” Just didn’t work.
Just read over my remarks to Mom of 8 above and I should clarify– these hardworking single moms I referred to in the last couple of sentences are colleagues I have worked with– I don’t work with single moms as part of my job.
Speaking of wanting to shake someone… Recently Eldest was dealing with a case of a pregnant 16 y.o. girl. He was appalled by the situation: “She’s 16, the boyfriend’s 16, the grandma to-be-is only 35, none of them have anything going fr them and everybody’s so joyful! I don’t get it.” C’mon Eldest…They’re having a sweet little baby. You really have to be a downbeat pessimist to find this depressing. These people are *optimists*. Isn’t that, at the very least, a good thing? Everyone there is pulling together and things will have a way of working out.
Yes.. It can also be that way ARN.
My middle boy’s wife’s mother,(only child) was still 16 when she (Daughter in law) was born,my son and she were “going steady” when she was 14 and he 15yrs.. they are now married 15.1/2yrs. and are now 41 and 42yrs. She has 5 siblings all girls,her mother sadly died of leukemia when the youngest was only 2.1/2- 3yrs old.. my D-in-law looked after the whole family untill she herself had her first child (her sister was by then 7 and was in school),one of the other girls then took over..One could ask; “what would have happened if her mother had decided against the (1st) pregnancy”.. I must add that both her grand mothers were no longer living..so help from grandparents was out..
God,or providence, what ever we call it, her family (and mine), are for ever gratefull..Every life has a purpose,and it’s place in the “big picture”.Yes,with family help things can “have a way of working out”..
There was no help from the “State authorities”, they only called to make sure the girls were not being neglected…”once in a blue moon”..BTW my daughter in law was herself only 20-21yrs old and was in the middle of training to be a nursery school teacher,which she became and still is..
Has anyone seen the film (I can’t remember the title),the leadig role; young unmarried girl,her boyfriend deserted her without money (in the middle of nowhere), had her baby in a “Wall Mart store” That was also very moving… for me at least.. I think she called er daughter “Americas” or something like that..
Pinochet, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler and Escriviello are in hell. The last one is happy because his teachings are folowed from some numeraries. Whip themselves every day and pray in latin. Thee is a huge differecne between being Christian and being an Escriviello apostle so Johnny remember that you will never contamitate young people wich your teaching and beliefs. We are in 2008 and all the world known that Opus escriviello is a sect that has nothing to do with Christ. You an go ahehad with this people on the blog who pray in Latin and believe in Escrivielleino a man who is in hell with his good friends.
Mom of 8–I just found your other comment further up that answers some of my questions. Thanks.
Back to La Sapienza for a moment– excellent Mercatornet article about the origin of universities:
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/where_did_universities_come_from/