Find What You're Looking For:
Navigation
The Categories
- Art (3)
- Cartoons (3)
- John Wauck (4)
- Life of Jesus Christ (4)
- Mortification (7)
- On Opus Dei (13)
- Recommended Posts (17)
- The Church (5)
- The Da Vinci Code (121)
- What others said (4)
The Archives
- March 2011
- November 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- April 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
- November 2007
- September 2007
- June 2007
Posts By Date
| M | T | W | T | F | S | S |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| « Mar | ||||||
| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | ||
| 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |
| 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |
| 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 |
| 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | ||
Registered Users
Subscribe
I remember well the moment that Pope Benedict XVI emerged on the balcony of the Loggia della Benedizione in the center of St. Peter’s facade … the cardinals who began to appear first, the murmur of the crowd, the suspense in the air.
At the moment Benedict’s name was announced I was speaking with a reporter for Associated Press television, and, when the interview was over, she asked me if I had any further thoughts. The first thing that came to my mind was that, in choosing the name Benedict – the name of the saint who, when much of Europe was pagan, laid one of the key cornerstones for the Christian civilization of Europe – the former Cardinal Ratzinger was sending a message of hope for Europe: despite what many say, despite the appearances, the spirit of Benedict is still alive and relevant today. That was what I took to be the point behind the name.
Naturally, these recollections are provoked by today’s feast – the feast of St. Benedict, patron of Europe – and they have a special resonance for me today because I am recalling them in Sweden, a country that is, in some ways, a poster child for the secularization that has transformed the Old World. Not that there isn’t competition. The Church of England seems to be – the expression was never more apt – dead set on its own demise. The less-well-known Church of Sweden has followed a similar trajectory: a tight alliance with the monarchy and an abject acquiescence in the steady erosion of faith.
Here in Sweden I have visited the birthplace of St. Bridget, near the Baltic coast a bit to the north west of Stockholm. As fate would have it, my office in Rome is essentially across the street for the room where she died in 1373. To think that this woman, in that century (the century of the Black Death), raised a family, traveled to Santiago de Compostela (Spain) on pilgrimage with her husband, returned to Sweden, was widowed, became a saint, mystic and foundress, and then died in Rome… it is to enter into a shared European civilization, a Christian culture that stretched, over national boundaries and linguistic divisions, from Scandinavia to the Mediterranean. She too is, like Benedict, a patron of Europe.
Next to the Old Town of Stockholm (Gamla Stan), there is a tiny island called Riddarholm (the Knight’s Island). It was the site of a Franciscan monastery until the time of the Protestant Reformation. The church built by the Franciscans is the oldest building in Stockholm. Gustav Vasa, the reforming monarch of Sweden, destroyed the monastery and gave the island to his noble friends (hence the modern name). The great Lutheran warrior king of the 30 Years War, Gustavus Adolphus, is now buried in the Franciscan’s church.
On the back of the apse of the main church in Gamla Stan there is a plaque that talks in glowing terms about the eradication of “papist superstitions” – the beliefs, that is, of the ancestors who had brought Christianity to Sweden and built these churches. In hindsight, it is easy enough to see that it was naive for the reformers to think they could do such violence to their own tradition without the fatal consequences that are obvious today. True, the modern Swedes tend not to believe in papist superstitions, but they also tend not to believe in Christianity either.
And yet, that is not the end of the story. Gustavus Adolphus’s daughter already had second thoughts about the reformation. She abdicated and became a Catholic. And over the centuries, many of the best and brightest – scholars, ministers, artists, ordinary folk – of the Protestant tradition have had similar second thoughts. We hear these days in the news that a fresh batch of Anglican ministers are talking about entering into Communion with Rome.
Here in Stockholm, there is a church – a state-controlled Lutheran church, of course – which is regularly used for large religious services. But those services are not attended by Lutheran Swedes. The “service,” celebrated in the Lutheran Church of St. John not far from where I am writing, is a Catholic Mass in Polish. I am told that Poles are filling churches in London as well. Call it the effect of John Paul II and the fall of The Wall. Sweden has one of the largest populations of Orthodox Christians (from Syria and Turkey) in Europe.
Who knows what the face of Christianity will look like in Europe in another generation? The secular Europeans have fewer children than the Poles. The Orthodox from the Middle East are all too familiar with the importance of demographics. They have large families too.
Clearly, Benedict XVI believes passionately in the Christian future of Europe, and he is certainly not focused on the past. Next week he will be traveling to Australia for the World Youth Day. As it turns out, he will be spending the first few days there, after the long flight, in a center run by Opus Dei. The prelate of Opus Dei is already on his way east, on a pastoral visit that will take him, via various countris, to Australia in time for the World Youth Day.
On this feast of St. Benedict, it only makes sense that our thoughts and prayers should go both to the Old World and to the Benedict of our own day and the young people he will soon be meeting on the other side of the world.
||
Print This Post
||
Email This Post
||
Other Recent Posts
Fr. John Wauck Blogs again!
- Filed under John Wauck. Created on March 20th.
Don’t Skip This Ad: A Brand New Book!
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on November 28th.
The Catholic Choice
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on November 2nd.
Just When You Thought It Was Safe
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on September 24th.
Juno/Juneau
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on September 2nd.
Read It and Weep… with Laughter
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on August 23rd.
The New Yorker: “Catholicism has everything else beat”
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on August 14th.
Don’t Give Up on Europe
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on July 11th.
B. in the U.S. A.: The Sheep Confirm the Shepherd’s Hope
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on April 27th.
Catholicism’s Cultural Glass: Half Empty or Half Full?
- Filed under The Da Vinci Code. Created on April 13th.
Give up on Europe? I’m counting on Europe!!
(Welcome back–and hey, answer your emails once in a while.)
“papist superstitions”
Like, daily corporate worship perhaps? Or the reduction of sacraments- that are meaningless for those who are spiritual torturers?
I am not counting on Europe, USA, or Canada, or Austraila for anything- or Germany, Great Britian, ect-
Simply its enough to know that we are everywhere. In all countries, worldwide. We are one family, with one Creed, and one hope.
Jesus did not give his siggie on any of their documents as far as I know.
Benedict, is reminding us of this universal hope we should have, no matter how desperate it may seem to be in our particular country.
Oh, I missed the not so subtle innuenndo there.
At the risk of being so bold to say, I am not even counting on Opus Dei to do anything either.
I am merely counting on what we can count on.
Re: emails…. mea culpa, mea culpa…
I think, Helen, that what we can count on is a mix of trials, victories, struggle, defeat, joys and sorrows. I don’t mean to suggest that there is some Golden Age around the corner. That’s never happened – except in fantasy and nostalgia – and it won’t.
And I think that you can count on many Christians (some of them in Opus Dei) to contribute to the survival and spread of Christianity in Europe.
Yes, Father I do belive with my whole heart, that Opus Dei is contributing to the survival of Christianity- and I can only speak from my own life and experiences, to say that. Others who are not, who also strive for this goal, if sincere- also pray daily for those who have chosen this. I can count on the survival of Christianity because Jesus promised it. I agree with Jesus and with you Father, that many Christians will do so, as it is God’s will.
“True, the modern Swedes tend not to believe in papist superstitions, but they also tend not to believe in Christianity either.”
It could be that the Scandinavians were never entirely Christianized in the first place. As one of their Icelandic cousins said “We were once bad pagans, and now we are bad Christians.”
About the European birth dearth, here’s an article from a couple weeks ago that may be of interest:(Spoiler–Scandinavians are ahead)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html
arn, from your link- I read it all. And, I saw this- that applies to all opposed to moral standards, and natural law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT1Lzry_9qc
It applies to all countries actually.
Its funny, how abortion was not even a thought for my grandparents.
I don’t think they were taught it to be a mortal sin, or anything else. They were, Lutheran after all.
FOR $100 OR SO YOU CAN buy online a Third Reich ‚ÄúMother‚Äôs Cross‚Äù (officially, a Cross of Honor of the German Mother). The medals were struck, beginning in 1938, in bronze for women who had four children, in silver for mothers of six and in gold for women who gave birth to eight. They were given out annually on Hitler‚Äôs mother‚Äôs birthday to heroines of the cause of fertility, which the F?ºhrer referred to as ‚Äúthe battlefield of women.‚Äù Natalism ‚Äî the state-sponsored policy to increase the birthrate ‚Äî has a rather tainted pedigree
—
From arn’s article I read earlier- I am guessing Sandra will comment on this, as I cant find any proof of this claim anywhere on the net, but that does not make it untrue of course. Sandra?
I guess, my question is, How can this be a “dogma” of an “infaillible” leader and yet people still think the Catholic Church is too demanding. Oh geeze.
OTOH, Scandinavia, as well as the other northern welfare states, has fulfilled the second of Jesus’ boiling down of the Mosaic law “Love your neighbor as yourself” quite admirably. That ought to count for something.
Helen–Hitler’s program to up the German birthrate is covered thoroughly in “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by I forget who.
True, Arn, about the kids up here. It is quite striking: lots of babies in strollers out on the street here – at least, more than in Italy. Of course, the parents are often unmarried, but that’s a different problem.
William Shirer, I think, is the author, Arn.
Interesting point about the incomplete Christianization of Scandinavia. Probably something to that. At the time of the Reformation, Christianity was much much younger up here. My understanding is that the Reformation in Sweden was an extremely political affair – basically Gustav Vasa taking over the Church, without that much interest in the theological issues at stake (a Lutheran Henry VIII of sorts).
Yesterday, Helen, I was at a museum and saw a display on the Swedish racial policies of the first part of the 20th century, and the poor Finns figured somewhere between Jews and Laplanders – ie, on the low end of the totem pole of racial superiority. Not a happy chapter in the national history.
Hey, everyone– couple of comments:
Back in the 80′s, there was an old friend of my husband’s from school, of part-Swedish background, who joined the Dominican order, and was, the last time my husband saw him, going to be sent to Sweden to evangelize. My husband never stayed in touch with him, though– wonder how his apostolate went/is going (don’t know of course if he’s still there).
An acquaintance of ours here married someone from Sweden and lived there for a time. In converstation he remarked that it was a very materialistic society, that the people he saw socially were very concerned with their possessions and jealous of other people’s possessions, more so than what he’d seen here in Canada. He also said that it was a very promiscuous place, that anyone’s husband or wife was openly considered fair game. He was glad enough to be back in Canada to raise his family, for the time being…who knows if things here in North America will get worse before they get better ? Of course this is all anecdotal, but I thought it worth mentioning.
It’s beautiful, breezy and sunny here- hope it’s as nice where you all are!
“…poor Finns figured somewhere between Jews and Laplanders – ie, on the low end of the totem pole of racial superiority. ”
Good Heavens…the Swedes had the nerve to engage in racial putdowns of people who, BTW *looked just like them*??? That must have been before the Winter War when those gutsy upstarts in white and on skis took on the USSR (OK ok w/German help).
Hi all!
Mostly checking in, not much to add to the discussion other than to confirm that yes, William Shirer is the author of the III. Reich history in question, which still makes for chilling reading even at this late remove. As does his “Berlin Diary” as well.
Teaching went fine. All of my students are now somewhat better conductors than they were a week ago; at the very least they have a good deal more to think about and some more tools with which to work than they had. And I’ve been asked to come back next summer to teach for two weeks: the basic course for a week, and then an advanced course on Renaissance choral works (Byrd, Tallis, Palestrina, Victoria — huzzah!) as well. So many thanks for all your prayers, which carried me through the 20 hour days (I tend to work a lot with students after and before class when I’m there).
My time in Chicago was fine, albeit frustrating. But as my evangelical friends are fond of saying, “God is good, all the time … all the time, God is good.” Amen to that.
Good evening / morning… I have just gotten back from London… and VERY glad to be back…
Now to the topic at hand….. (well sort of)
You may remember, I did, in a previous (long time ago) post, make reference to just that ‘problem’ in Italy… not only, do they not have children, they mostly do NOT marry in church….
A not uncommon example; Most of Ivano’s university friends are either, NOT married, or, if they are, most have not married in church,and have (3 out of five) none or just one child… those, again, have no children,and are mostly not married.. but live blissfully in SIN… Ivano’s eldest brother,R..(69yrs.), has 2 children, son.35yrs..unmarried,no children, daughter, 43yrs.,who has just, the end of last year, had her first (and most definately last) child.. His other brother F…. (63yrs) has no children… Ivano has only two cousins,one, has one adopted child,the other (married to a young woman from the Dominican Republic), has 3 daughters.. that, is the whole of his Italian family… says it all does it not????? This is NOT a ‘new’ phenomenon..This situation is widespread in western European countries…
Germany has a very social policy towards families with children,but still the birth rate is falling.. for germans at least…where as, the Muslime,Turkish and eastern European immigrants are having ever more children…. The crux of the matter is,that the german women want to ( have to) work… but do not want to have children,only then,leave them in a ‘day-care centre’… The extended large families are no longer there to help out with baby sitting… or, the grand parents are so ‘fit’ that they want to live their OWN lives to the full, so, there is no one to look after the children while both parents work…
In the late sixties,to have large families was thought to be ‘socialy unacceptable’ more than three children were thought to be only found in socialy “under privileged’ families, those who had 3 or more were ‘looked down upon’,and thought ‘irresponsible’ to have SOOOOOOOO many children… The ‘baby boom period’ was long gone… Now,we are paying for that….
Perhaps it has also to do with the fact that many of my generation, born during, or just after WWII,had very few privilages, came from large families, 5+ siblings,they, wanted to give their children a ‘better’ life???? Or, after witnessing their parents struggling to make ends meet, and never realy being able to…. “growing old before their time”.. Post war Europe was laid in “soot and ashes” for a whole generation… The population had a very hard time to find a job that would enable them to support an ever growing family.. living quarters were few and far between,such memmories are hard to forget.. I know, that my father in law (from first marriage),did not return from Rusian POW camp untill the early nineteen fifties,my mother in law lived for 5 years, with her two small children,inlaws,sister and brother in law in a ‘displaced persons’ compound,1 1/2 rooms, shared toilet facilities with 4 other families.. untill my father in law came back from
Russian POW camp.. three more children soon arrived,she, never worked, my father in law supported his family as best he could… never in his life a holliday,he has never owned a car,and as far as I can remember never went out to a restaurant for a meal,except for the wedding of his children…
Yes…….
The *proud bearers* of “The Mothers Cross” were left to fend for all the >>Kinder f?ºr unsere F?ºhrer
Jerry, I wish I had a chance to have helped you have a less frustrating stay here, but unfortunately, I was prob not here when you were here. Even if I had been, I may have only furthered your frustration. So, God does work in mysterious ways after all.
Father, I am glad you saw that in a weird way, just so you realize that I am not slandering the good people of whom you are visiting now. It’s the past, and we know it, but move on, albiet confused all along wondering why?
Arn, not sure what you mean by the Germans helping. Maybe you and Sandra can clarify. I am aware that some did, as individuals but, beyond that I need both of you to help clarify. The USA did little to nothing, until it was almost a done deal.(I may be confused as to who you mean they helped in this case)
From what I was always told, Father is most correct in his understanding of the events. But, today is a bit different, the Finns today dont seem to mind what anyone thinks of them, yet are aware of the situation that mostly is prevalent with the older generation – however that generation has inadvertantly passed on their “traditions” to theirs, maybe even without realizing it. And yes, my aunt left Finland to seek a better paying job in Sweden. However, it came with quite a price to her child.
And again only part of my comment went through….. (no wonder really, much tooo long)
Any way, I wrote further;-
The fathers of those(above mentioned) children were either dead,maimed or in POW’s Thank you Ad*lf!!!!
(It is allways the women;children and the elderly, on BOTH sides who suffer for the ludicrousy of war)…
Ironically it was women who were HIS most ardent admireres / supporters.. but then, HE flattered their ego,something not so common before..
It is small wonder that many,when concidering the state of this world,ie’ gang-coulture,violence,drugs and the very real possibility of yet ANOTHER “War to end all wars”,decide not to bring their children into such a world…
Allthough decrease in birth rates has a lot to do with, the *promiscuous” life style and “the p*ll”, it is none the less the fault of the state of our world…
We need a secure world to bring our children into… this we do NOT have… No matter if we be;- Muslime,Lutherian,Jewish,Protestant,Anglican Catholic… etc.
It is all well and good puting our faith in “the next life” (which we should) but the crux of the matter is children will be born into THIS world NOW… a chilling thought…. Especially, after experiencing the London of today……… frightening……..almost every ,one or more young person being stabbed to death for no apparent reason.. The victims as well as the perpertraters,are from 12yrs- under 20yrs. more than 24 deaths, from stabbings so far in just 7 months, in London alone. not counting other violent deaths,ie’shootings, beatings,etc.
And all the while,the Anglican Bishops cast votes about Female Bishops,g*y Priests..
Yes, as Shakespeare once wrote;- “To be or not to be” and the title of a well known song “Knock,knock, knocking on Heaven’s door” or in this case…. on the Vatican’s door…..
Father Wauack, do you predict a large nummber of Anglican Bishops ‘deflecting’? and if so will / could,
certain ‘compromises’ be asked and / or given?… Looks like Charles won’t have much ‘Church’ to be head of when his time comes… if HIS time comes…
Sooooooo now I wish ou all a ver good night / Morning
PS, sorry I cut and somehow deleted a comment for Jerry- I am so very happy that God has blessed you with these gifts, and that you are sharing them with others, who will in turn- share with more. That is beautiful.
Sandra, it was hardly a “secure” world to bring the Messiah into at the time of His Holy Birth.
Dont you think, maybe- just maybe- that alone was a sign of hope for us to have in these desperate times?
I await your reply with baited breath my dear sister.
Jerry, I really hope you can reply to Sandra’s question from your lense, re: compromise.
If, I can be so bold to add my 1 cent here- one can not compromise truth, but can compromise in areas that do not detract from it. I would need your insight here, to know if in any way that a hinderance has been created on the part of the Catholic Church for this happy event to occur Sandra alludes to.
I am hoping its my being “green” that makes me go- huh?
Its the same being green or “new” that makes me believe in the deepest part of my soul, that every time I attend Holy Mass, I am helping someone, somewhere- to find the way. Call me idealistic. I really believe that, with my whole mind, heart and soul.
Helen Hi!
Yes it was not safe for Jews then either….
But then God knew what the future for his son held,and besides HE was, If you like (silly platitude) *on a mission* for Mankind… And as God does allways make good His promise,in this case the sending (birth) of the saviour no matter what… We,on the other hand are, to put it bluntly,after all only human, with human failings,it is IMHO a different matter.. but that is just my opinion…
I expect that it was, and is,allways combined with a certain anxiety, when one has children in any age..
But,due to the technical means we have at our disposal today, we are more informed about the shape our world is in, to wich we can not close our eyes and ears.. (nor our hearts)..
Don’t get me wrong,I am not advocating NOT having children,far from it.. but I can, in some way understand if some would rather not.. We all know how it is to feel a certain fear of what would / will become of our children… no matter how old they may be we will allways worry…
Any way *Little Miss Muffet*, “how does your garden grow,with silver bells and cockle shells, and pretty maids all in a row”??? Mine has sorely missed me.. as has my house…. Ivano is NOT a *houseman*
Too hot to do much sister in Christ.
But, you do beg the question. You make it sound as if Mary was, only needing an internet and some books, to do what she did. I hope I am wrong, and just jumping around and misreading here. I do not mean to offend, as I know you mean no harm.
*correction* or to NOT do what she did.
Either way, my questions stand Sandra.
The simple point I made was the God Himself gave us an example of how to have hope to raise a child, no matter how bleak the circumstances, He would provide a way somehow. Please tell me if I am wrong.
huzzah!
Please explain. I don’t know what you mean by this, unless you are saying that – Victoria is great stuff?
Am I right? I dont even know if it is or is not, if its meant in fun or not, totally clueless. You must remember, that in my parish- music is not exactly the finer point, but agian, I cant say I know what really is the finer point in my parish to be honest. Thanks be to God, I could care less what they do in that nut house. I just know, that its right that I am there and there is a reason for me to be there, no matter what they pull.
The fascination with “monsters” during this pre-Reformation period was also an occasion for anticlerical propaganda. For example, in 1496, a strange creature found in Rome was named the “Papstesel” or the pope’s donkey, and, in 1522, the Saxons “discovered” a monster which they described as part calf and part monk. These monsters, widely publicized and often the subject of broadsheets, were sometimes considered to be political omens.[R.W. Scribner. For the Sake of Simple Folk. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1981, p. 127.]
Got that from CA. I guess this explains the whole donkey thing.
“The simple point I made was the God Himself gave us an example of how to have hope to raise a child, no matter how bleak the circumstances”
I don’t really get that message at all from the Incarnation. This was a special event having nothing to do with the prudence of having children at a certain time.
“But,due to the technical means we have at our disposal today, we are more informed about the shape our world is in, to wich we can not close our eyes and ears.. (nor our hearts)..”
We are probably more reflective overall than our ancestors who brought children into the world prob knowing full well it could easily starve to death. Part of that was they have no access to modern BC or even perhaps ignorance of the folk methods for holding down fertility (withdrawal, douching). But it was also the culture which encouraged having many kids, a good part of that religious, (at least after peasants got off the farm when large families were no longer an asset.). Did they love their children any less back then or was life just cheap?
Not a bad deal for the Church, demanding its adherents keep pumping out more believers when its senseless economically for the family (either that or do w/o s*x), but the Church doesn’t have to help support them. In modern economic terms this is known as privatizing profits and socializing losses.
Maybe I’ve been listening to my embittered Mom too much, who even with dementia still hasn’t forgotten everything, esp. things that enrage her. Anyway Sandra, having a child now is an act of great optimism (even to the point of foolhardiness now in the eyes of some) given that so many are planned i.e. brought into existence deliberately. It’s so easy now to give into your worries and not get into the game at all! Looking at it that way Michelle and I are wild-eyed optimists I guess, but I keep thinking of something from another blog–The future doesn’t belong to any group in particular, only the people who show up for it.
Sandra–one more thing. The Shorto article i cited from the NYT didn’t even mention pessimism in the future as a reason for the low European birth rate. Odd.
Your last coment ARN…..
Yes I did notice that….. as to why? well that would be admiting ‘failure’ on behalf of the ‘elected leaders’….. who, love to rub our noses in the fact that we should count ourselves ‘lucky’ to live in this, oh soooo civilized part of the world,eaqual rights and so forth…. lot of ‘hog wash’
Ok,ok I know that is an issue the world over, but, if the ‘authorities’ secular or religious, are so very concerned about the declining birth rate, give REAL TIME HELP!!! stop ‘passing the buck’ that is so easy….
And most of all, work TOGETHER for a safer world for the, so very much needed children…. I say here NEEDED, not nescessarily, WANTED children. They, to a lot of ‘authorities’,are but a by-product, nescessary to ensure their own future…. instead of being THE future….
There has allways been the posibility of losing ones child to the ravages of war / desease caused through poverty, but then there was no ‘choice’, except the “Engelmacherin” (backstreet helpers for women in ‘trouble’) as ARN wrote,they were not so educated in any way to ‘plan’ their family….+ the infant mortality was sky high,bearing 10+children was the average, thing is,it was not ‘uncommon’ for only 5 to reach adulthood (if even),unless one was *well of* and even then the threat of deadly deseases was allways present..
Eccononomical dificulties;-
If you have children YOU are expected to fend for them, if you can’t, “don’t ask for our help”… “you should have thought of that BEFORE you had them” Ofcourse there are ‘facilities’,to have your children taken care of while you go to work,but……… if you ‘earn’ you pay… to make a ‘profit’ the mothers lose-out on the whole point of ‘motherhood’ ie’ BEING THERE with their child, as they have to either work evenings, leaving their children with the fathers, who,come home from a “hard days work”,they, are then missing out on a ‘family life’… OR, work mornings, when the children are at school/nursery.. take them there,rush to work,rush back,pick up the children (from diferent facilities), make lunch,housework,supervise ‘homework’ (at least two hours).. get the evening meal done,await the husband,put the children to bed… do the other ‘odd jobs’ around the house……then….. fall into a ‘coma’ untill the next morning(no time for the spouse and his / her needs),what luxury, that is ofcourse, if they do not lose sleep, STILL having to worry about;
>>can we manage this month / who needs new shoes/winter coats/how will we manage to pay for, the next school outing/the gas/electric/heating bill, inspite of both of us working!!!’….
Financially,psychologically and physically we are stretched to the limit.
Facit;–WE JUST CAN NOT AFORD ANOTHER CHILD,END OF
Yes ARN… I understand your Mum….. sooooo very well.
And once again yes, you ARN,Michelle,Dianne and Brenda and many many more mothers of large families deserve our respect for taking on such a responsibility… I take my ‘hat off’!!
“I don‚Äôt really get that message at all from the Incarnation. This was a special event having nothing to do with the prudence of having children at a certain time.”
While its only my speculation about this, and therefore its not important, I must say I cant see how we can get around the fact that God would have the messiah born at the time of one of the bloodiest maniacs that ever was in power, having an young virgin carry this child to term and a older poor widower (their financial provider) and none of that be an example for us at all? Its very hard for me to even see how Mary trusted God with this crazy plan. But, that is what I was saying. Its all about how much we trust God. Sara, did not so much. Look what happened with that!
This all reminds me of the t-shirts I started noticing 20 years ago, “I’m spending my children’s inheritance”
maybe its gone from that to, lets not have children, and spend spend spend on ourselves to the end!
I guess culturally speaking, it was of utmost import to have a child. I mean, look how desperate Sara was to have one. Birthrights, blessings, so much hanging in the balance. Imagine the stress being a levite? Who will continue to pump out priests? The pressure to have children, or boys rather, must have been huge for them. I have an idea on how to make the birthrate go up. Make a limit on how many children one can have, then boom! The interest will soar suddenly. People will be fighting for children! Make anything exclusive, and suddenly the demand goes way up for it. The church should tell us to stop having kids, and the rebel types will be trying to get pregnant today. “they cant tell me what to do!. I will have as many as I want! come home early tonight honey!” There are enough rebel types that are of childbearing age that it would be a huge success!
BC’s will be in trash cans today.
Interesting angle Helen..
But I think not…
What you write about >> Imagine the stress being a levite
Sandra- I meant to say imagine the stress of being a woman, in that tribe.
I am sorry I was unclear. I did not mean in any way to say, it was as stressful for the men. After all, they could simply have a concubine to settle the matter.
As, unfortunately- and as history shows, many priests of the Roman Rite have abused- (having concubines- or whatever you can call a woman who bears your child on the “side”)
They fell into the Sara trap. Not trusting God enough.
That’s why I am so proud to say Mary is my spiritual mother! She did not fall for that “pride” thing.
I don’t know what is wrong but my comments are only going partly through…
I will now have to re-write the rest of my comment… but it will take a while… sorry..
one quickie… the ref, interesting angle being in connection to your remark, limiting the amount of children one can have ….. I’ll try to get the rest through as soon as……..
Part of my comment was… “Don’t give up on Europe”…. well,could read; “Europe,don’t give up on Children”,
…and their wellfare, by insuring a safer world for the parents to bring them up in…
BTW.Helen I did understand you perfectly… and I agree.. so much ‘in advance’
The rest will have to wait ’till the morning I must get to bed.. last night I was up far too late…
…….. on the blog………
I have tried to post a link to the Mosta Dom in Malta, where the uncle of my brother-in-law, Dun Mario Tong, is Arcipriet, but it does not go through… There is avery good photo of him.. My sister and her husband have just returned from visiting there..
)
Perhaps you can help Father Wauck? (it seems none of my links are going through
I will try to contact him (the Arcipriet) via e-mail… perhaps he would like to pay us a visit on the blog..
have a nice day ….
Knisja Arcipretali Santwarju Mosta name of web-site… go to Parish information… and there he is..
(This one for you Helen)
The following from an article in “The Catholic News”
>>Mary co-redemptrix boon for religious dialogue:>that proclaiming Mary as “spiritual mother of all humanity” and “co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer” would aid not hinder inter-religious dialogue
And once AGAIN;-
>> Catholic News >Besides apologies why don’t laity get active in policies for life and family such as this instead:
An acknowledgement in all legislation affecting families of the need to preserve and protect the institution of marriage and of the need to maintain the moral, social, legal and economic support of the traditional family unit as the most effective (including cost-effective) means to safeguard children from the harm of exploitation, violence, p*rnography, drugs and crime.
Support for more effective State and Federal legislation to control the display and distribution of video and internet p*rnography and violence, with particular regard to the foremost consideration in all cases – the need to protect children from harm.
Sort of summs it up don’t you think???
Now… I realy must ‘complain’
jk.
Only half of my comment goes through…. ???
And, in this case, it was not VERY long…
The quote I gave from the Catholic News was in response to,-
calls for an apology from the Pope, regarding abuse by the Catholic clergy…
Hope this goes through in it’s *entirety*
Enough from me for now (do I hear a sigh of relief?
)
I’m off to do the weekly shoping
have a good day all
One last try to get that message for Helen through….
Hope it works it..
Cardinal Toppo wrote,-
“enthusiastic letters of support were recieved from Cardinals and Bishops from all five continents”
“Many of the letters spoke of the need for the dogma and Our Lady’s greatest possible intercession for the troubled situation for the world today, including the rampant war and terrorism, religious persecution, moral depravity, family breakdown and even natural disasters,” Cardinal Toppo said.
“The general consensus of the letters from my brother cardinals and bishops is that now is the time for this fifth Marian dogma as a remedy for the unique difficulties facing the world,” he continued.
“As she did in the Upper Room and in the early Church, Our Lady can intercede like no one else for a new release of the Holy Spirit to bring new grace, peace and protection for the Church and for the world”
IT WORKED…. YES!!!!
Seems like you all have other things to do..
So, I will wish you all a very good Sunday..
I can’t imagine having better things to do, than to speak to a good freind. However, I have been trying to “saycation” here, and tonight, we come back, from the second day at the Greek EO festivities (huge) close to me. father intends to call me as soon as he can. He thanked me for something I noticed, and told me no one ever even asked him about it before. IE: he needs time to prepare a respone to me.
Whatever. Very kind man. He told me that it was touching I was so concerned about the blood of Christ, to be willing to stay watching it, protecting it, as I did. Sending out my husband to summon him to secure it safely.
Turns out, it was safe after all, and father explained very kindly, how there was nothing to worry over.
However, he did thank me for my concern, and love of the Eucharist. He wondered if, (based on my name perhaps, or my particular Cross I wear, if I was Greek. I told him the “bad news” I am a Catholic of the Latin Rite. He asked for my phone number, which I gave, and told me he will call me.
Good for him. He is only doing what he believes is correct to do, God love him. I certianly will be very kind if he calls me. But, I will simply remind him kindly I am already at home. No matter what that home is, its mine. I can’t imagine being anywhere else. And, as tempting as it is, to be going to their Divine Liturgy, which- for those here who have not attended- (simply amazing)
Yet, that is not enough for me. I know that what I want, is not priority.
Sandra, I am a bit confused. I have no idea what point you are making here.
Can you clue me in?
Meant to say”staycation” Ie: stay nearby on “vacation” – = staycation. Sorry for the mix up.
If, Sandra you are asking if Mary can intercede- I am – rather my child is- living proof that Mary hears our prayers.
You cant change my mind on that one.
Mary, helped me to trust in God more. She does everyday. So does Joseph.
Sandra, just provide the link from which you posted, and let me digest it. If the source is reliable, and the information is credible, I can work with that.
Morning Helen,
I am afraid I cannot get the link through… don’t know why…I’ll try sending it in an e-mail ok..
Helen I am so sorry, if you either, missunderstood my “message” to you,OR (more likely) I was so unlear…
I thought to give you a “treat”, as I know how much you *love* Mary…
The *proposition* put forward by Cardinal Toppo was, that another (5th) Dogma should be created for The Virgin Mary..as the mother of Christ,to intercede,with Christ as the *redeemer*, to “send once again, the Holy Spirit (as he did once before, ‘in the upper room’ to the apostles). To ‘counter’ the ‘unique’ situation of the times we live in,and the many ‘deflections’ from the true,Apostolic Mission by some clergy,leading to distrust,and confusion, ulimately resulting in ‘deflection’ among the christian lay communities… giving them faith,strenth,and guidence for the future.
In no way did I want to “change your mind”…… A futile task anyway..
I hope that I have (in my round-about way) been able to explain my intentions ?
Have an enjoyable Sunday,all of you, where ever you may be………
Correction….. should read >>>> unclear
Sandra, the filter blocks posts with more than one link, but if there’s only one link, it should go through. I didn’t realize that you have a Maltese connection. I spent a summer traveling down there, substituting for another priest. Remarkable place… and very Catholic.
I did notice Card. Toppo’s remarks, but I’m not at all sure how many people he is speaking for.
I hope that everyone will be praying for the apostolic fruit of the World Youth Day down under. It seems to have gone very well – though I am certainly tired of seeing news reports focusing on the s-x abuse scandals again. As if 250,000 kids gathered to listen to the Pope weren’t news enough in itself.
Father wauck,glad to *see* you again.
Yes I do have a “maltese connection”…
My brother -in law’s family are orininally from Malta.. most of his father’s and mother’s family still live there.. His father served in the british forces (same regiment as my father)..
It would be nice if Dun Tong would visit your blog…
I do not seem to get any links through,but if you google Mosta and then the Dom you will find him under “Parish information”
The Dom by the way is VERY beautiful… The Parish in Mosta is over 400years old… worth taking a look ..
These people never have a legitimate discussion. Goood job Wauck, They fear questions they do no tlike to answer, such as the story about the tomb of the Magliana gang boss Enrico De Pedis
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4212107.ece
Father Wauck,I forgot to thank you for this post, it is very interesting,as it includes nearly all the very actual topics concerning not only the youth, but also,parents and grand parents..
We are living in extreme times,which gives us all cause for anxiety,not only for our selves but for the future of our world,our children and grandchildren.. It is up to us all to give hope,and faith,but most of all love.. for that is realy what is lacking,LOVE and CHARITY,two of the three things most prominent in all Christ’s teachings..
And ofcourse I will pray, that the young people of this world will have been heartend by the *Wold Youth Day”, and decide, NOT to “give up on US”,as the guardians of THEIR future..
We must not dwell too much in the past,but look to the future,all the while learning from past FAILURES..
I wish you all a very good evening..
Just to underscore Father’s point about World Youth Day– here is a nice article on Mercatornet:
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/catholic_and_cool_in_sydney/
Also, great blogging on WYD courtesy of Salt and Light Television:
http://www.saltandlighttv.org/blog/
Hey Sandra,
Hope you are enjoying the day, today was a better day for us too. In any event, could you please repost that link re: Mary- as I am hoping the good people here on the blog will know it comes from you directly, and not from me from email. (not that I have checked mine today- much too busy getting the remainder of the first draft of school supplies) ect. And, lots of other misc, things related to school prep.
As you know, its rather time consuming. Especially when, the teachers at her school have not bothered to update the list in over a decade. I protested last year, and this fell on deaf ears. They dont care how inconvienient they make it for us parents. We should worship them dontcha know? LOL My Butt.
She met the teachers from the OD run school, at Park Ridge Fest. They were highly impressed with her.
Too bad its a lot more money, or she would be there this fall. No doubt, God has a better plan.
He must want her to stay, so she can help the others with the basics she already has taught others in her class. Like the Hail Mary, and Our Father.
Just checked my emails, nothing in there Sandra. Since our last convo emmail.
I am curious, because as Father rightly states- this has been a controversial topic for some, if not most who do not fully understand the teological basis/understanding of a “new” (its not really a new “thing”) but new formal definition. I see both sides, and see the concerns of those who are hesitant. Hey, I was considering the EO. Talk about hesitancy (or impotency) to change a lightbulb. I get it.
I just wish you could give me the context, fully- to what you allude to. Dont worry about “giving” me one, on behalf of Mary (as you know my deep devotion to her)- even she would ask me to use my brain God gave me, and think this out, fully. I am sure you agree this is what we all must do. Or should, at least try to. And, how can we without having any idea about what is being said?
Kinda like when I asked you about “compromise” re: your statements about the Anglican communion…
I never got clarity there either. I wish, I had. If only to try to make sense of this, with another convert- who happens to be a huge blessing to the Church. I wish I had heard his comments regarding that issue.
In closing, we both pray for you all daily- in our morning prayers, and evening prayers.
Josip- No need to reply- if you dont want to.
Just want you to know, that all the links you left for me, I am giving to her so she can research/learn if she does not have me to teach her of these things. Thank you for that help for her sake.
+
Helen,
Nothing is happening what I didn`t say in Croatian. Everything what I do is for your well, even when I am in a silence. Have a confidence, I know what am I doing. In any time you need me, I`ll be here.
Josip
Helen good morning,
I am afraid I cannot find the article (I have stupidly) deleted it, but have sent an e-mail to the “Catholic News” requesting then if possible to send the link in an e-mail to me,which I will forward to you..
Father Wauck,as you write that you have read the article in question,perhaps you could help here ??
>>>Compromise
Once again only part of my comment has gone through…?????
).
Here (hopefully) the rest;-
The compromise I refer to is as follows.
There has been for decades an on-going discussion, between the Anglican and the Roman Catholic Church,regarding a possible *unification*..
In light of the recent events(ordination of women/ g*y priests),there is increasing unrest (disobediance) among the Anglican higher clery,and calls for seperation from the *oficial Anglican Church*,and a move towards Rome.. 1/3rd. of Anglican Bishops/Cardinals have in protest,declined the inviation by the Archbishop of Canterbury to attend the 10yearly meeting of Cardinals in Canterbury.. it is evident that “something is gona give” but the question is, WHAT,and by WHOM? That was my question to Father Wauck.. I hope that was what you ment? if not do not feel adverse to ask again,I in no way wanted to *avoid* your question.
Sorry if I did not clearly state that one (as usual
Found it!!!!
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/z5mardogm.htm
and it WORKED…. (due to Mary’s intersession? )
A small quote from the link..
“The signatories of the letter are five of the six cardinal co-sponsors of the 2005 International Symposium on Marian Coredemption, held in Fatima: Cardinal Telesphore Toppo, archbishop of Ranchi, India; Cardinal Luis Aponte Mart??nez, retired archbishop of San Juan, Puerto Rico; Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil, major archbishop of Ernakulam-Angamaly, India; Cardinal Riccardo Vidal, archbishop of Cebu, Philippines; and Cardinal Ernesto Corripio y Ahumada, retired archbishop of Mexico City.
Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, who died last August, was the sixth cardinal co-sponsor of the 2005 conference. He was the president of the Pontifical Council of the Family from 1974 until he resigned in 1990″.
CORRECTION…………. Sorry very big blunder;- * intercession * not intersession… that comes from being too cocky… (a great sin of mine).
PS.Helen I mailed it to you just incase the link did not go through.
Very upseting news from Rome..
I ave just heard on CNN.. that the Italian Gov. has ordred all Romma’s (Gypsies), adults, and more disturbing,children,are to be *fingerprinted*… very reminicent of,a well known, german *regime*..
I know very many Rommas here where I live,and without exception, they are all very devout catholics,and by the way THEY do have large fmilies….
This I think is very disturbing indeed..
Any word on this from your end Father Wauck.. ?
Sandra, I did not hear of the Gypsies thing, but you are aware there is nothing the Church can do in this matter. You do know that right?
I remember my mother telling me how she would offer them whatever she had on hand, food- if any to spare- offer them clothes, ect. for fear if she was not kind- they would steal one of her children. Its kinda sad she did it out of fear, and not love- but the way my mom tells it, they were sorta a bit wild in Finland, and were notorious for stealing children to do work for them. True or not (I hope they did not actually steal children, and it was a myth) its a shame their children could not play with the others in my mom’s area growing up. The first thing grandma did was hide them in the house and told them not to speak or make noise until she gave them the signal it was okay, and they were gone. I don’t know what I would do. I do hide my child as it is now, even when the meter reader comes out.
Oh Helen, I think (know) it is a myth,like telling the children “the *black* man will get you if you are naughty” the other saying (in Europe) was, “be good, or the Gypsies will come for you”
Ofcourse, as in all communities,religious and secular, there are *good* and *bad*… this also aplies to Gypies. The thing is, we should *snubb-out* the beginings… and not wait untill it is too late..as happend in Germany,Bosnia,Tibet and now in Zimbabwe. When a certain section of the population of a country, is sought-out for discrimination, at any level, because of gender,faith,colour or political allianz,while the *civilized world* looks on,this can only encourage more of the same…IMHO.And even more serious when the Religious leaders(of any denomination), remain silent,with or with-out much effect…. It is their explicit human DUTY, to express their condemmnation… especially when such a *crime*, is happening within their own community /bounderies. (in this instance ROME /Italy). Don’t you agree? Do we have such short memories? Or are we too complacent,after all it does not efect US does it? Is this the world we advocate that more children should be born into?
Just dropping by to say hello. I went to the Dark Knight on Sunday afternoon,under protest for I did not really want to see it but we were in a city 3 hours away from home visiting our teenagers who are at a summer sea cadet sailing camp and it was pouring rain out and it was our son Robert’s 13th birthday and daughter Margaret’s 16th birthday. (I have 3 children born on July 20th!) So they won out and we went to the movies and decided on the Dark Knight. It was dark, very dark. Gotham has gotten about as bad as one could imagine a place becoming. But their was still hope. I kept my eyes closed most of the movie for Heath Ledger was about as scary as I imagine the devil is. But Batman, a very Christ-like figure was willing to take on the crimes of others and sacrifice himself for the good of Gotham.
My experience with Opus Dei has led me to meet many, many people who are so Christ-like, that I know we do not have to give up on Europe. We will always have heroes who will be willing to do the right thing. The DArk Knight gives us a good glimpse of just how bad things can get but we still have hope.
Hope and faith are the two things that we will (should) never give up on Dianne.
This movie has such bad surrounding press that I think I will give it a miss.
I wish there were more “encouraging” themes for movie makers… but as I once wrote.. “s*x,despair,dugs and violence” sells so not much hope for the less *commercial* type of movie I’m afraid.. Christian Bale (one of the leading *stars* in the movie) has been arrested in London for the asault on his Mother and sister… great promotion for the movie… !!!! What a turn of events!! from savior of the univers to “mother and sister beater”…. The other *star* died of a *over doses* yes so very encouraging heros for our young…
sorry I only have this in german but you can conclude for your selves what is ment..
http://unterhaltung.t-online.de/c/15/68/17/62/15681762.html
Untersuchungshaft means he has been arrested pending investigation.
“Die Mutter und die Schwester des Briten h?§tten Anzeige erstattet, weil Bale sie am Sonntag in einem Hotel in London t?§tlich angegriffen habe.” which means that,- “his mother and sister have accused lodged charges against him of *bodily attacing them in a London Hotel* “
Sorry should read;- *attacking*
Go to CNN.com/europe for anther exaple of Christian Charity
Dianne (and everyone) — First Things on “The Dark Knight”
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=1130
My 3 oldest saw it, loved it.
I don’t have to worry about the Dark Knight movie just yet. Hope your children had great birthdays Dianne!
Well Sandra, it could be redundant for the Church to make any comment regarding this, as her position is already a “given” perhaps. I mean, its clear not only in the CCC, but in many many documents. And, possibly it’s just a matter of time as Holy Father has been rather busy lately, who knows- he may still address it- or not. Italy seems to have numerous “issues” that are going on in direct conflict with Chruch views.
Sandra, the actors personal life, is his personal life. He never went from a savior of any kind to an alleged mother/sister abuser. Surely we dont believe that his character in film is in any way representative of his real life. I don’t think its a minus for the movie, nor a plus. Now, if you mean does he make a good role model as the person in real life- it appears he is not. But, I dont chose actors as role models for my child to aspire to be anyway. I liked sound of music, but you won’t find Julie Andrews books or posters here.
After reading Michelle’s link I think the movie is not promoting evil- but giving people a lot to think about in terms of their own personal responsibility.
I liked that last paragraph in that link best- especially the part about few with virtue. This is why we go to Mass as often as possible. Protestants cant gather for corporate worship daily. Its a shame, because perhaps if they did have the option, it would aid the state of the world,somehow even if they lack the Eucharist. Muslims also- Friday is just one day to be “holy” it seems. Christianity in the Catholic Church is a 24/7 thing.
Helen you are right ofcourse,*film-stars* are generally not identical with the character they portrait,never the less, they ARE made into *icons* by the press,this also works the other way,when they slip up..
Not every child /youth that goes to the movies,are blessed with having a parent who takes enough interest in their activities,or even monitor the movies / books / or even music they are *in to*.. If they did they would be surprised at the content of some of them.
I after reading the article,am sorry to say, that in the description of the content of this mov??e,there is too much “film noir” for my liking… too much bleakness,not a film I would like to take my grandson to view..
Perhaps I am too squeemish…
About the Catholic Church being a 24/7 thing, well perhaps in the USA.. it is not so in England, practically no Church has it’s doors open there 24/7.. for fear of vandalism,sad as this may be,it is the sorry state of affairs.. The Catholic Churches are open at certain hours daily(ie’ for morning Mass,and Benedicton), as are the Anglican.. BTW the Anglicans do receive the Eucharist,they too believe in the *Real Presence*.
,another *common demominator*.
here a little someting for you all (especially Farther Wauck as I know you like the works of Donne)
Anglicans generally and officially believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but the specifics of that belief range from transubstantiation, sometimes with Eucharistic adoration (mainly Anglo-Catholics), to something akin to a belief in a “pneumatic” presence, which may or may not be tied to the Eucharistic elements themselves (almost always “Low Church” or Evangelical Anglicans).
The classic Anglican aphorism with regard to this debate is found in a poem by John Donne (sometimes attributed to Elizabeth I):
He was the Word that spake it;
He took the bread and brake it;
and what that Word did make it;
I do believe and take it.[32]
Anglican belief in the Eucharistic Sacrifice (“Sacrifice of the Mass”) is set forth in the response Saepius officio of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York to Pope Leo XIII’s Papal Encyclical Apostolicae curae. Anglicans and Roman Catholics declared that they had “substantial agreement on the doctrine of the Eucharist” in the Windsor Statement on Eucharistic Doctrine from the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Consultation and the Elucidation of the ARCIC Windsor Statement…
Where there is Faith there is Hope (a way) in my opinion….
Thanks Michellefor the First Things movie review. It is right on. It is an amazing movie. The violence is bloodless, but chilling. I never want to see it again and I will never buy it, but it is a work of art well worth one view.
As to Christian Bale, it is too bad that the media got a hold of this story for they do to Bale what Batman was trying to avoid with the other hero in the movie who went bad after the Joker got to him. The latest word in the Christian Bale assault scandal is that the Dark Knight star got into an argument with his mother in London’s Dorchester Hotel when she insulted his wife. Bale is married to Sandra “Sibi” Blazic, a former model and Winona Ryder’s personal assistant.
Bale was arrested on Tuesday on suspicion of assault, but has been released on bail without being charged. He denies any wrongdoing.
A source close to the actor told the U.K. Daily Mail, “Christian was stressed, but he didn‚Äôt lay a finger on anyone. Instead, he flew off the handle and cussed his mother. He just got very loud because his mother was saying some very outrageous things about him, and his wife.‚Äù
I am also sure that with the opening of this film and with all the rumours surrounding Ledger’s death, that all these actors must be very stressed.
Apparently CB’s mother has not kept Mary as her role model to strive to be like.
Sandra, the doors are not open here 24/7, but daily corporate worship is available. In order to receive worthily, daily- one must examine themselves of course. Living our faith is not just one day a week is what I was saying. It’s really an all day everyday job. It would be even more challenging if I were as dedicated as some here. I try to offer up all my work, and be faithful in the small things, but I slip up quite often. I am fascinated by those who can do it.
Sandra, I’ll send you an e mail re the anglican topic. I am not sure its best for me to post here on it.
“I try to offer up all my work, and be faithful in the small things, but I slip up quite often.”– Yep, I know what you mean.
However– we can all pray for each other to be faithful!
You guys all have a great day– I’ll leave you with Paul McCartney, on the Plains of Abraham, singing “Let it Be”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqq2c17eqtM
Someone sent me an email with a link to a blog, that talks about Mt Ermos (Mount of the Beatitudes) and the single olive tree that is still bearing olives. That one, apparently was blessed by JPII in 2000. I dont know if its true or not, but its certainly going to be fodder for anti catholics I am sure.
John Paul of blessed memory, I meant to type, but am not typing well today.
So right Michelle,It is the efort that counts,not very many of us can claim to be allways ‘up-to-scratch’.
It has also to do with perseverance,and not giving up..
Thanks for the link.. great song…
Exactly the word- perserverance. In spite of awful personal lives of the clergy, in spite of the hard teachings, lousy parishes, schools ect. For instance Sandra- what do we make of the verse- “because you were neither hot nor cold…”
Not a great way to invision oneself, vomited out. So, say we miss Mass on Sunday and dont worry about it. We do a great many “good things” through that week, and the next 4 days for example’s sake. Was any of it meritorius? I am hesitant to say it was.
For instance, the new custom at our parish is to bow before the altar, yet bypass genuflecting in front of the tabernacle. (those who read). Now, this along with other things may be enough to cause someone to be scandalized. Should I simply say to myself- hey at least that reader is up there volunteering? Should I say, its a shame the priest does not correct this grave error? OR should I go to Mass more often myself, praying for the intention that these and other horrors stop? I cant pray for things to stop that are wrong if I myself am all wrong also (in mortal sin) sure, I can try- but what futility!
I think I finally figured out why Sandra brought up the Anglican topic. I just caught up, and see where the “new interest” comes from, in one of the most liberal theologians, but a good move, and coming from him, possibly there will be a better chance of people thinking this is a mere inquiry, (as it reads).
I do worry, about the Anglican clergy who have pensions on the line, who would like to swim the Tiber.
IF, that is what you meant by compromise Sandra- I agree. We should be there financially for the clergy who wish to come home to Rome. They should not be in a position to stay there when they really would rather leave.
Certainly it would be a good cause, to aid them if this were their concern, and it is since they have no assuraces of anything if they took the plunge.
That sure is a harsh passage from the Bible Helen..
I have allways thought of that,and what be the meaning behind it.I came to the conclusion that it ment; “you’re either,for me or against me..you can’t be neutural”.. Many *well meaning* quotes such as;
“Well if YOU beleive in the Bible that’s ok.. it is your right,after all you are not harming anyone.I just don’t know one way or the other,but I go to Mass ‘cos all my family and neighbours do”
About the other part of your comment,well yes that is in part what I ment.
The only real obsticle, for many Anglican Priests (Pastors),would be celebacy… Although The High Church Anglicans,are in favour of unmarried ministers,the question arises,of what would become of those who are already married?.. As Scripture also says,any who are already in that state,should not “put away” their spouses,for this would be a cruel harshness.. *compromise*? .. let those stay married, but any one afterwards wishing to become a priest,would have to swear celebacy?
The Anglican Church is not without finacial means. In my personal opinon,those who are entitled to a pension should receive this from that Church.All those who are not yet eligible,then a solution must be found,which would enable them to support them selves and their wifes,when that time comes, ie, a sort of compensation in form of a *pension fund* according to how many years they have served their Church?..
This I think would not present a problem which could (with good will) not be over come..
If we for a moment try to put the more *prominent* historical figures aside,we would remember that,most of the population in England at the start of this whole delema,were asured that “everything would stay as it was,they remain Catholic,all the traditions of the Catholic church were to remain *intact* “,this over time did change. The *political side* to this,was not understood by most.. and to be truthfull they did not care,HenryVIII’s coffers were empty,he found a way to fill them,the population (wrongly) thought this would mean less taxes,far from the reality. Then,too late discovered, when one goes down that, oh so slippery road, there is no turning back… To be truthfull Rome was not helpful there either,all married clergy were to “cast out” their wives (and children)… No *pension or finacial help offered, no where to live,except they relied on relatives (who in the great majority of cases did not have enough for themselves)…
….untill now… possibly!!!
Ah well, dream on Sandra… why not?
Sorry to not have enough time to get in on this interesting discussion but I wanted to share my friend Michael Coren’s recent article on the subject. http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=657090
I like how Micheal puts it “The Church of England was founded on the premise of an attack on marriage, by a brutish and arguably psychotic man who was tired of his wife and wanted a male heir and a roll in the hay with Anne Boleyn. It was solidified by his daughter, who had Catholic priests and laity publicly disembowelled, made Catholic services illegal and forced legions of individual Catholics into bankruptcy and ruin.”
I have always been concerned for the Anglicans and I pray for them to come back. One of my friends here in my town was a former Anglican minister and when he converted with his wife and children he became a Catholic priest.
“That sure is a harsh passage from the Bible Helen..
I have allways thought of that,and what be the meaning behind it.I came to the conclusion that it ment; ‚Äúyou‚Äôre either,for me or against me..you can‚Äôt be neutural‚Äù.. ”
Thats a bit vauge! What exactly is “for” Him, in this case?
Again, I am sure you know what my answer to that would be, but the way this is written- I really dont know what you mean by For Him. Or, what would be neutral (I assume you mean paying lip service there- which I wholeheartedly agree with)
“Many *well meaning* quotes such as;
‚ÄúWell if YOU beleive in the Bible that‚Äôs ok.. it is your right,after all you are not harming anyone.I just don‚Äôt know one way or the other,but I go to Mass ‚Äòcos all my family and neighbours do‚Äù”
Again, see my reply above re: lip service. Going to Mass with an attitude like that is very sad indeed.
But, likewise could be the person who “believes in the Bible” (which, all Catholics do- so I assume you mean “believes the bible to be their sole rule of faith”) if all they do is believe in a book (odd thought actually) and dont spend a moment to bow their Knee and preform their worship obligations. So, in this example I am taking the leap that person a and person b may be equally lukewarm. Since, simply beliving in the bible is really not enough, even by mainline protestant standards. (even though, I dont think there is a single requirement they do more than that and can remain “saved”. (I am trying not to lump all protestants in one pot here, but I am failing to recall any communion that actually does require more to remain saved.
Part 2 in response to your post coming up. Lets just say right now- I think it has already been discussed that other faith communities have had married priests come home and its not a problematic situation Sandra. Dianne’s most current post affirms that.
Of course, I agree that the Anglican communion ought to do right by theirs, but I am not sure they are giving any assurances of that. We cant exactly tell them they must.
Whatever do you mean by this Sandra?
To be truthfull Rome was not helpful there either,all married clergy were to “cast out” their wives (and children)… No *pension or finacial help offered, no where to live,except they relied on relatives (who in the great majority of cases did not have enough for themselves)…
You were expecting Rome to care for the Priests who chose to break union with the Holy See? Were they not responsible for their own actions or did they lack free will?
Playing devils advocate here Dianne, the argument could be made (its a bit weak in one area though) that a causa could have been granted, as many at that time were, which frustrated Henry. Of course, he slipped up by not waiting for the official outcome of a descision, and sneaking off and marrying prior to that. But, in reality, many then were granted a causa for very lame reasons then. So, his lack of obedience- and his terrible action – God brought something Good out of it. A saint. St Thomas Moore
Ouch. I just read Dianne’s link, and well- he was a bit harsh I think. I know that is odd sounding coming from me. But, really- that was a bit harsh and as I pointed out, not exactly quite right. Attack on marriage, well- okay. But, as I said if it were uncommon at the time for a causa to be doled out, I would say okay.
The real issue was his impatience and not waiting for the offical outcome. And, frankly I am not sure the tone of his letter was in any way helpful now. Not only that, he lacked giving the reader a more precise understanding of the different groups within that communion, and the more recent fracture groups (one is somewhat like our “sspx” friends in schism) and Jerry would obviously know more about this. I just think it was not a very balanced article, and very harsh. It was not that many years ago, our pope gave their representative his ring. I cant recall the names now offhand. So, obviously- there was a far warmer relationship that has seriously deteriorated recently. The demand for clarity of their position is more than reasonable. It seems to me the question boils down to, do you view yourselves as protestants or not?
Some say they are Catholic in that communion yet support things that have never been a part of Christian tradtion by any stretch of the imagination. I dont like to bring up the 2 big issues that are the huge mess they have on their hands now, because its not productive. We also, have messes to clean up in other ways and are in constand need of purification. Anyway,it occured to me when they come home it will be a transition for them to get used to a CCC.
And, it should be noted, out of respect, they do not have a “Bishop of Rome” they have another title for the clerical installed in Rome at St Pauls in the Walls I believe.
I dont know what you mean by dream on, but Sandra I dont think you have established any case for the Catholic Church to “compromise” on here. So, again if I missed it let me know what it would be.
“BTW the Anglicans do receive the Eucharist,they too believe in the *Real Presence*.
,another *common demominator*. ”
LOL. I missed this gem. Um, NO. The reason being, they have no valid orders- therefore they can believe whatever they wish, it does not make it so. Not to mention that “substantial agreement” is not full agreement. So, this one is far from a “common denominator”. It may be a closer block to build from, but not much different than say the MS Lutherans really. Its okay to be hopeful, but Sandra, one must not throw logic out the door in doing so.
Hi! It’s 00.04 here (Sat morning) I have just come in from the garden beautiful day/evening..
We had untill now guests for a Bar-B-Q.. so have little time,to answer all your queeries Helen.I also don’t have the time to read Dianne’s link but will do BOTH in the Morning / later..
Have a good evening all of you…
Must get the dises in the washer and have a shower then off to bed… so tsch?ºs bis morgen….
BBQ sounds great! Especially when sharing a meal. So does the sound of a shower now, as its summer!
I do have more questions that most definately can wait for anytime Sandra. I am happy you had a great day, as its the time to really enjoy this beautiful, yet short time now.
Heads up on next question: “assurances” that the Catholic faith/traditions would reamin…
?
Given by, who?
Lets imagine for a moment, that I tell Ivano you will never ever smoke a cigar again.
He for some reason, believes me.
By what authority do I have to make this outragoues claim?
WOW!… Too much at one time for me (but then I aked for it)..
Right,Nr.1.
Warm or cold. = Take the teachings of Christ as binding /truth, =for him.
Reject those teachings =against him.
Undecided =neutral.. neither for nor agaist..or just partly.
Did they lack free will?
Well yes they did.. as they knew VERY little of what was going on.
Further more I was refering to the *ordinary* person here,and the ordinary parish priest,both of whom were to 85% illiterate.. existing from one day to the next,trying to avoid death from hunger or from some desease (easily curable today).Praying that they keep a roof above their heads,that there would be no war to take the men away leaving the wives and children desolute…. (No Pension fund,no health package.And absolutely NO FUTURE.)
The Higher clergy lived lives of princes..in palaces… eat well and, for the lower clergy not only forbiden,but unatainable,,they had their *wives* (concubines) who,were well looked after,as a reward for looking after the bodily need of their *master*.. even worse the poor *hovels* in which the normalo’s lived,and the land they were allowed to *toil* on ,24/7, were owned by just those *Higher clergy*… so they were at their mercy…
Easy from our vantage point today to condemm such behaviour(ie’giving in to the *rule of the Land*)even if it ment going against ones concience…people just wanted to LIVE.. The more crucial point is that News did not travel fast… it would have been months for the population to realize what exactly was binding for them.. if indeed they ever truly understood..The Scripture was NOT available to them,plus,even if this were so… how many do you think could have read it?? Even most of the parish priests could not read nor write english never mind Latin..(another language for Scripture was not allowed).
After the King (and most of the Bishops, Cardinals) had decided that He was *Head of the CATHOLIC Church IN England* There was not much the ordinary priest,population could do… but obey… Things esculated from there on.. By the way during HenryVIII’s reign married priests were still forbiden.. Even Archbishop Crannmer who WAS married (to a nice of Ossiander),had to keep the fact a secret,he was not alone in this..
I will now have to make breakfast for Ivano…. be back soon KK.
Many annullments had been grated previously,on much more flimsier grounds,ie’ Henry’s Sister (dowager Queen of France)..
Why could Clement NOT grant HenryVIII his from Catherine of Aragon? ;-
On May 6 1527, the Imperial (Spanish led) army attacked the walls at the Gianicolo and Vatican Hills. Charles III, Duke of Bourbon, was fatally wounded in the assault, allegedly shot by Benvenuto Cellini. The death of the last respected command authority among the army caused any restraint in the soldiers to disappear, and they easily captured the walls of Rome the same day. One of the Swiss Guard’s most notable hours occurred at this time. Almost the entire guard was massacred by Imperial troops on the steps of St Peter’s Basilica. Of 189 guards on duty only 42 survived, but their bravery ensured that Clement VII escaped to safety, down the passetto di Borgo, a secret corridor which still links the Vatican City to Castel Sant’Angelo.
Charles V (Nephew of Catherine of Aragon)was greatly embarrassed and powerless to stop his troops, but he was not displeased by the fact that they had struck decisively against Pope Clement and imprisoned him. Clement VII was to spend the rest of his life trying to avoid conflict with Charles V, avoiding decisions that could displease him.(such as granting HenryVIII the anullment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon although Henry declared for Clement against Charles during the *War of the league of Cognac* together with Francis King of France,who later made peace with CharlesV deserting Clement)… One would think, that *the sacking of Rome,The imprisoment of the Pope* would be a graver sin agaist the authority of the Papacy? Or not?
Seems not! as Clement later Crowned Charles,when he (Charles) arrived in Genoa, proceeded to Bologna to meet with the Pope. Clement absolved the participants of the sack of Rome and promised to crown Charles. In return, he received Ravenna and Cervia; cities which the Republic of Venice was forced to surrender‚Äîalong with her remaining possessions in Apulia‚Äîto Charles in exchange for being permitted to retain the holdings she had won at Marignano.” No *Out cry* no *threat of Excommunication* For *His Most Holy Majesty* King Charles V.????
Catholic Martyr Saint Thomas Moore….(He is also an *Anglican Saint* and his feast day is kept by them) Later…. By the way his head is burried in St. Dunstan’s Church, an Anglican parish church in Canterbury
I now will make lunch,have a rest (from housework) in the garden (weather is once again beautiful)..
Sandra, I agree that flimsier cases were granted freely at that time (see my posts)
So, your basically saying that the Catholic Church ought to have helped out the women and children cast out.
How to find them Sandra? Were they registed in the parish rolls? I think not.
Its a bit idealistic to expect the CC to send out spies to track them all down and rescue them all.
(I was responding to this comment you made)
To be truthfull Rome was not helpful there either,all married clergy were to “cast out” their wives (and children)… No *pension or finacial help offered, no where to live,except they relied on relatives (who in the great majority of cases did not have enough for themselves)…
You admit that
After the King (and most of the Bishops, Cardinals) had decided that He was *Head of the CATHOLIC Church IN England*
So, Sandra it certainly appears that the responsiblity lay on the bishops and cardinals who sold out their flock they were in care of. They were the ones with the secret and not so secret wives, are you sure it was common or was it rare for the lowly parish priest then to have them also?
After the King (and most of the Bishops, Cardinals) had decided that He was *Head of the CATHOLIC Church IN England* There was not much the ordinary priest,population could do… but obey…
Well, St Thomas Moore certainly was not ordinary, and he was educated but- he did not obey the heretic king, he obeyed the CC.
well, thats enough questions for a long time. Tend the yard and swim classes, then out to finish the last things needed for school. This whole topic is so depressing. I just get the feeling that you seem to find so much fault with the CC all the time Sandra, and I guess it just makes me sad.
Helen I do not find more fault (in those times) with the CC than with the other side.. but also not very much less… as, they did behave badly,they did NOT lead by example… nor were their, most prominent, motives the wellfare,and/or salvation, of their *flock*,be they secular, and/or religious..Rather the *promotion* of their own WELL-fare,here on earth..
Saint Thomas Moore,*lawyer-d* his way through most of the troubles… he assured HenryVIII of his loyalty to Anne Boleyn,as Henry’s Queen (after his *marriage), also to any heirs she may bear him… More wrote on the subject of the Boleyn marriage (1533) that, “[I] neither murmur at it nor dispute upon it, nor never did nor will … I faithfully pray to God for his Grace and hers both long to live and well, and their noble issue too” Not exactly obeying the CC, or am I wrong?.. BTW. Thomas Moore (before all this),had heretics, by HIS (Moore’s)order, burnt at the stake,ofcourse,not before ordering their (H??chst not-peinliche Befragung =*questioning*= torture. which he, at least once, witnessed personally).. He was known to be a *fervent* follower/persecuter of heretics… and also passed down very harsh punishments on others accused.of *secular* crimes.. By no means the *humanist* he is thought of today..
A briliant scholar,rhetoric a great statesmann,an outwardly pious mann. But also, what would be called *wryly* today..
He never immagined that Henry would (in defiance of popular uproar,both at home and abroad,both Catholic and Anglican))dare to have him executed ,More believed he could not be convicted as long as he did not explicitly deny that the king was the head of the church, and he therefore refused to answer all questions regarding his opinions on the subject,when it became obvious that he was wrong in this.. well,by then it was too late,he had gone too far, to,without the loss of his integrity(honor), give in to signing the Act of Succession..
All other things he had, albeit *unwillingly*,acepted.. In defiance of the CC, ie,accepting Anne Boleyn as Henry’s Queen.
Saint John Fisher is in my mind the more worthy Martyr of that terrible Injustice..
Lastly, I do NOT, in any way, applaud,nor defend HenryVIII’s actions.. I am just stating a fact(s)
HenryVIII,ElizabetI,and later Edward son of Jane Seymore did condemm to death *heretics* just as MaryI(Tudor)and many others before and after… The Punishment for treason, was for to be,*hung,drawn,and quartered*,for Herecey,burning at the stake,barbaric I admit but NOT a different form of execution for the same offences in the rest of Europe,including Catholic countries… I will close by saying;- Two wrongs don’t make a right….
We can only be thankfull that such practices are not continued today..
Sandra, you think in the secular cases in which Moore delt with, that you describe as harsh- was it not true that those individuals knew that whatever punishment they would get, would be far less severe than the authorities would have given, and therefore they themselves opted for going that route?
You just seem to paint a unbalanced picture here.
Sandra, you mention its not fair to judge those times, but- since you say this, then tell us what the situation would have been like without the Church at that time. Better? Or worse? You say most of the parish priests were illiterate, so- explain the culpability of such a man in this senario you posit:
Helen I do not find more fault (in those times) with the CC than with the other side.. but also not very much less… as, they did behave badly,they did NOT lead by example… nor were their, most prominent, motives the wellfare,and/or salvation, of their *flock*,be they secular, and/or religious..Rather the *promotion* of their own WELL-fare,here on earth..
Now, dont you believe that for a person to be truly guilty they must have knowledge that what they are doing is wrong? If they did not know how to unsure the welfare/salvation of souls, would they still be guilty of not doing so?
There are 3 things one must be guilty of to have mortal sin.
Its awfully judgmental to propose you knew their knowledge level (esp when you admit, that so many were illiterate) and motives, and have ruled a descision without the benefit of them being here for your cross examination to determine all these things you have.
“an outwardly pious man”
What? More judging? How in the world can you say such things. That, is shameful. I have no idea how you can say this considering how many warnings there are in the bible, and mostly from your favorite- Paul.
Dont make me drag out my bible now.,
Helen The persons I refer to are NOT the priests in very rural parts,but those within the Heirachy.. who yery well had knowledge of what they were doing…
I do Not presume to judge them… The Popes of later times DID.. During the Reformation these very *failings* were acknowledged by the Vatican and steps were proposed to undermine such things in future,including a better standard of education for the *lower* clergy..
Again regarding Thomas Moore.. In my opinon,and I thought also in the opinion of the CC,a person who delights in administering unwarrented pain = torture for what ever reason,and to what ever end.. can not be wholey GOODLY… sorry to upset you, but, if I said otherwise I would most definately be hypocritical..
Thomas Moore had (it is documented)6 persons executed for heresey,and many more imprisoned, which should make us a little sceptical.. as his most acclaimed literary work “Utopia” refers to his belief in “Religious tolerance”… something he most definately did not practice…
PS… never a bad thing,to “drag out your Bible”
Have a nice evening..
Hope you get all you need for your daughter’s bid event (first day at school)
Sandra, do you happen to know how many cases were brought before St Thomas Moore?
And- in the 6 cases you cite he had executed, would you be able to tell me what they were found guilty of, but also what their charges were? For instance, are you assuming that all 6 were innocent of any crime?
I need to see more detail before so quickly assuming so much.
Also, how do you have knowledge that he “delighted” in any of this?
Reading hearts again Sandra?
So many unanswered questions, so little time.
I am almost done, just need to get the finishing touches, which must wait until closer in time to the day.
Thank you to, (check your email) and I will let her know the term “bid event” which- is greek to me, but I would like her to know this. Thank you again, my dear friend (that I like to rangle with)
My mother will be going to Holy Mass tomorrow morning, and I will not be there with her. Please pray for her.
My silly self, of course we will all be there with here at Holy Mass, even if distant. I just wish I could be there with her next to her in the pew. But, we are still all together, no matter the distance.
Wow! Helen I am so pleased for you..
I will keep your mother in my thoughts, as I am sure we all will.