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I must confess that I thought that the original subject of this blog, The Da Vinci Code, was a thing of the past – a bad memory. True, we have recently heard rumblings – particularly here in Rome Рabout the upcoming Angels and Demons movie, but the lousy film version of the Da Vinci Code pretty much stomped on the original story.
But yesterday, here in Rome, a 68-year-old priest was brutally stabbed by a young man, Marco Luzi, who claimed to have watched a TV transmission of The Da Vinci Code the night before.
Police searching the apartment of Luzi found a variety of objects related to Dan Brown’s novel.
The priest, Don Canio, was in grave condition on Wednesday. Say a prayer for him. And for Dan Brown.
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I suppose I should add the comment, reported in the Corriere della Sera newspaper, that the young attacker, referring to the DVC movie, made to the investigators afterwards: “Ma quella e finzione, io invece facevo sul serio” (But that was fiction; I however did it for real). Sadly, he seems to have caught the nasty heart of a fundamentally silly book.
He sounds like a sick puppy looking for an inspiration to act out. It would have been something else if Dan’s potboiler hadn’t come to his attention first.
Let’s prayer Father Canio recovers.
That said, I still think you should rename the blog to ‘In the World, But Not Of It…’ or something to that effect. Gives the blog a lot of latitude.
For what it’s worth.
As someone who’s seen what are called “delusions of reference” up close in someone with a mental illness, I’m just not a fan of conspiracy theory fiction at all. I know, as ARN says, that with this kind of situation if it wasn’t a conspiracy story it could well be something else (e.g. newspaper article), but my gut reaction to this kind of fiction is to envision the odd poor soul just going off the deep end. Not up on the literature, myself, but I wonder if any kind of quantitative study has been done to see if this genre more readily elicits delusions that end in violent behaviour in an already ill person than other kinds of stories (say, sci-fi, or historical romances). Must. Not. Spend. Afternoon. Googling. This.
FRom what I’ve seen, a paranoid person can think there are secret messages hidden for them in something as innocuous as the recipes section in the local paper. It seems to me that if you present them with a story that has conspiracy as its *theme*, well, then…
Yes, ARN. The fellow was clearly a troubled soul, and as you say, if it weren’t Dan Brown’s novel, it probably would have been something else. I don’t mean to exaggerate this or make Brown guilty of the attack. Nevertheless, if it weren’t for Dan Brown’s novel, it might well have not been Don Canio.
Hmmm. In the world, but not of it…
What do others think of that as a blog title?
Along similar lines: Sanctis sancta, mundanis mundana. It’s more or less the same idea, but I think it packs more meaning… albeit in Latin, which is, I suppose, cheating!
Sanctis Sancta… works or me!
‘Sanctis sancta, mundanis mundana.’ Hmmmm…I’m guessing ..the holy is holy, the world is the world? If so I like it. It also has that all-important snob appeal, being Latin and all. It’s the kind of thing that belongs on the top of a letterhead with a coat of arms. In any case, better than say “Angels and Demons” or “If it feels good, do it” (in Latin of course).
So yeah I’m with Mr Farrell on this.
Actually, the usual version of the saying is a little longer and less symmetrical … but also more intelligible.
It’s “Sanctis omnia sancta, mundanis mundana.” It means “To the saints, all things are holy; to the worldly, they’re all mundane.” You can see how Latin has English beat for pithiness.
I suppose that one could take it as an ugly “us versus them” kind of credo, but I prefer to think of it as expressing a goal, as a call to work toward the holiness that transforms the world itself and the things of the world into a occasion for meeting God, “sanctifying” it all. Pretty clear, I imagine, what this has to do with Opus Dei.
I would think Catholics do have a certian difference in viewing God’s grace being present all around us, and God’s presence IN the world, His nearness to His creation. At the risk even, of appearing to be superstitious, or worse. The way we see holiness in marriage as a sacrament, and beauty in sacred buildings (well, we can still find them anyway- whether or not they are places to find quiet contemplation is sadly another story) Grace is all around you in a catholic mind. In sacramentals people see as pomp, and in slinging dinner for the family its just all a wonderful playground of grace for the catholic mind. Even blessed water becomes something so supernatural to the catholic running his fingers over his skin with it.
How brave, how beautiful.
I like both ideas for new titles. Catholics have a courage to step into areas others dare not tread.
Perhaps, a balance would be better considering the downside to an over active imagination.
Father, did you know Father Canio?
Hi!
) bye 4 now………….
Reporting back for duty
missed you all,chat perhaps tonight… (my visitors are still here so must cater for them before having fun
Here’s another thought. How about ‘Contra Murmurantes”?
I’ve always suspected St. Thomas Aquinas had a deadpan sense of humor, and I’ve always loved the title of his “De Aeternitate Mundi Contra Murmurantes.” He must have enjoyed tweaking them, whoever they were.
OK, you’ve got me between high school French cognates and bored reading at Mass of the Latin/English Missal. So here’s my feeble effort: “Of eternity against the world’s ??? (something I dunno)” or “Of the eternal world against murmurs (of the heart)?”. Enlighten me.
Sandra and Helen–what’s up?
Arn, my news can’t be as exciting as Sandra coming from vacation, so I hesitate to tell you the details that are so very mundane. The child won as fastest runner of girls in her class recently. Her joy was short lived, when she found out a boy beat her for top in class. She could have done another lap, but slowed down to join her friend and go her speed. Even so, she would have lost to him for top score by one lap. Gotta like that boy, he gave her a high five after it was all over. She is now suddenly not a person to “push around” at least for the moment. I have been painting on glass, and trying very feebly attempting to make an image of the Maddona as I see her. Went picking apples, even climbed a rickety ladder to get the “better ones”… all the while wondering why that fruit is always in mind when we think of Eve and the moment in the garden.
I think it could have been avocado, but a “lemon” would make more sense really.
Arn, why does the Church make the analogy that God’s love can be seen in human love, yet it is not clear where it stands on sexual matters clearly enough… I mean, I know the drill- but I still think its a matter that the Church is hesitant to delve into in a real way.. (I address arn and all others who are not flamers)
Arn, my news can’t be as exciting as Sandra coming from vacation, so I hesitate to tell you the details that are so very mundane. The child won as fastest runner of girls in her class recently. Her joy was short lived, when she found out a boy beat her for top in class. She could have done another lap, but slowed down to join her friend and go her speed. Even so, she would have lost to him for top score by one lap. Gotta like that boy, he gave her a high five after it was all over. She is now suddenly not a person to “push around” at least for the moment. I have been painting on glass, and trying very feebly attempting to make an image of the Maddona as I see her. Went picking apples, even climbed a rickety ladder to get the “better ones”… all the while wondering why that fruit is always in mind when we think of Eve and the moment in the garden.
I think it could have been avocado, but a “lemon” would make more sense really.
Arn, why does the Church make the analogy that God’s love can be seen in human love, yet it is not clear where it stands on socks matters clearly enough… I mean, I know the drill- but I still think its a matter that the Church is hesitant to delve into in a real way.. (I address arn and all others who are not flamers)
Sorry father, I tripped the trigger please delete the other post
Mr. Farrell piqued my curiosity on the new idea for title of the blog.
Hi Arn,
As near as I can translate it: On the Eternity of the World, against those who murmer against it. St. T wrote this to demonstrate that by reason one could not either prove or disprove whether the world had a beginning in time. Christians accepted the beginning based on revelation, but one could argue that the world had always existed, without obviating its contingency of God.
Of course, there are a lot of mumurantes in the world today muttering against just about every principle the Church stands for, so I thought that might be a neat blog title.
For what it’s worth…
“Contra murmurantes”! Very good. Perhaps a bit more polemical than I’d like, but….
Wow, Helen. Autumn apple-picking in the Midwest. That brings back memories. No cider here.
Hi all,
I just have come back from the airport (seeing my mom and brother off) I am a little tired so must be a short comment (for a change)..
Ah yes,the “mur-murings” ….. seems at times they are pretty loud though!!
The D.V.C, title of this blog, does “hit the nail on the head” – “secrecy/plots/cover ups/corruption
/occultism” all the things that the “murmurers” are “muttering” about when criticizing any religious group… especially when,they “understand not”,so much easier to accuse / blame, rather than try to understand and / or respect,the beliefs/traditions of others.
A pity that sometimes such ideas are “presented on a plater” to them.. (sadly,many examples set by, not so integre,clergy /lay persons of all dominations)
Good news “the Vatican is going green”… I was able to take time to watch the news yesterday,and heard that the Vatican has installed solar paneling to save energy,I expect allso to lessen the bad effect of fossil fuels on our inviornment..
Good idea!!!
A quick note about my short holliday…. Great weather,great time had by all,only one hitch…….too short!
Helen I hope your “ailment” is on the mend??
I wish you all a very good night / evening… tc.
PS. I left my address book at home
so will have to send the postcards from Germany, but will put danish stamps (bought before I noticed the missing addy-book) on them too.. 
PPS. comment as usual,still long….. ta ta 4 now
I am glad that I found your blog.
I am a 20yr old convert (converted in 07) to the faith. I chose to attend an Orthodox Catholic school last year, to learn more about the faith I had just been received into. My (Catholic) friends from around here (my hometown) just said “as long as it’s not Opus Dei or something crazy like that…” and so I assumed Opus Dei was a bad thing.
Since then, I have caught a priest I trusted attempting to teach me his personal opinion when he KNEW (and admitted as much) that the Church teaching (as found in the official Catechism) is the exact opposite of what his opinion, two other priests have advised me that even if I’m in a state of mortal sin I can just make a good act of contrition and receive communion anyway, without worrying about confession, my RCIA director told me that the pope oppresses women (because we can’t be priests) and that we don’t have to believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches (so it’s okay to miss Mass on Sunday and receive communion in a Lutheran ecclessial community for the sake of family unity and peace), and I’ve found this attitude of “my opinion is more valid than the Church’s opinion” to be the prevailing one in this city.
On the other hand, the people at school taught me from the Catechism, we were privileged to partake in the Extraordinary form of the Mass on occasion, to participate in wild praise and worship sessions and praise and adoration nights, prayer was the basis for everything and we were taught to subjugate our personal opinion to Church teaching in our very first Christian Doctrine essay – because if we believe that God speaks through the Church, then either everything the Church says is true or God is a liar.
These same people – my teachers from school – have encouraged me to look into maybe finding an Opus Dei spiritual director, since I am finding it difficult to trust even the priests in my hometown (with the exception of one that I know of, who seems to base what he says on truth rather than opinion) – and I’ve responded nervously remembering the negative sentiments I’ve heard about it.
(btw, apparently because many Opus Dei documents are in Latin, Opus Dei is “secretive”, but then again… Latin being the language of the Church and most if not all official Church documents having a Latin editio typica, that doesn’t bother me… except that I wish even more now that my attempts to learn Latin had proved more successful)
Anyways, looking up “Opus Dei” on google brings up your blogs, Fr. Wauck (do you prefer Fr. Wauck or Fr. John?), and reading them has been very encouraging for me. I’ve just found the (I hope) official Opus Dei website for Canada, and I look forward to learning more.
I will pray that your blog continues to be a successful ministry, and I will keep that intention in my daily prayers. Thank you for being an honest voice.
Pax Christi
Hello Elena!
Your parish sounds familliar to me. Glad to meet you sister in Christ.
You are safe with Opus Dei, and especially with Father or should I say Doctor? He is a real blessing to the Church. I am very grateful for his efforts in this personal blog. He brought me closer to Christ, and I looked to his words many times recently, again and again to get me to see suffering in a whole new way, not just by reading his words and agreeing they are logical and make sense but by real application of his words.
Father, I saw an innovation in cider. Berry Cider. Yes, its true. They infuse the cider with berries.
I forgot to mention the cider doughnuts..
Does anyone have any ideas for a frame for my Mary? I was thinking wood on three sides and a row of red beads on one side with one white pearl in the center of that row. Without seeing her, I know this is hard to comment on, but I am looking for ideas that work with who she is.
Elena, don’t worry. My priests (except one) are in direct defiance of church teaching on many a matter.
when you are there, if you are there- pray feverently for them during the Mass. I stumbled to this blog in your condition. Priests telling me not to believe, because they no longer did. Josemaria Escriva had a plan to help the church, and I think its working. Please contact Father on the part of the site to email him.
He can direct you to an Opus Dei center, and priest.
Good to see you again Sandra! At least I missed you.;)
To one and all, happy anniversary of the founding of Opus Dei – 80 years ago today. Those of you have been following this post will be amused to know that, in a get-together today, the prelate of Opus Dei, Bishop Echevarria, referred to the saying “Sanctis omnia sancta, mundana mundanis”! So, I guess I am on the right track…
Welcome to the blog, Elena, and thank you, Helen, for the very kind words – and for the sound advice for Elena. My own view is that there are many people who read this blog and pray for each other, and that can only do everyone a lot of good. I’d be happy to let Elena know how to get in contact with priests of Opus Dei in Canada. As it happens, a fair number of the “regulars” on this blog are Canadians, so maybe they want to weigh in with their own suggestions. In the meantime, thanks for the prayers, and be sure that I’ll be keeping you in mine.
Delighted to hear that the vacation went well, Sandra. I myself have just returned from a few in days in Abruzzo, out in the mountains on the other side of the peninsula. Can’t claim it was a vacation – especially since we are still, at least technically, on summer vacation here! And, in truth, it was a rather intense workshop in preparation for the fall semester, which begins on Monday (the anniversary of St. Josemaria’s canonization).
JMJ
Hi Helen, I am glad to meet you, too.
I’ve just started reading an on-line bio of St. Josemaria… he’s interesting. It seems so weird to me that people can come from such holy beginnings… I’m almost envious of people who have childhoods which were so grounded in Faith, but it’s obvious they have their own sufferings as well.
I’ve filled in the official communique box (or whatever it’s called) on the official Opus Dei in Canada website, asking if anyone comes through this city. I don’t know how long I should wait for a response, but I think I’ll give it a little longer.
Plus I’ve just made contact with a priest who is not himself Opus Dei, but who was apparently formed by Opus Dei and who has been highly recommended to me by some religious sisters whom I trust. So maybe (please Guardien Angel) I’ll have a SD soon.
Interesting, Fr. Wauck, that Opus Dei is celebrating it’s anniversary today… as it’s the Feast of our Gaurdien Angels.
The readings at Mass today might’ve been picked for me.
Pax Christi
I take it all back Sandra. Your coloring book has been the topic of the teacher’s religious ed part of the class now. So, it translates into my coming into the class to read the narratives on each of her finished pages to the class. They will all get to take turns bringing a page home to talk to their parents about them.
Good work Sandra! More work for me, but its good work if you can get it. It all started from her giving one of her finished pages to her as a gift. I hope it has a good result!
Speaking of Josemaria Escriva, I will attend Mass monday morning and pray to ask him when he can bring a married person to cannonized sainthood for their virtue displayed in marriage, I know the list but it does not seem that anyone but Monica was granted this by virtue of her vocation in marriage, did not hurt she brought Sandra’s favorite saint into the world either.
Maybe there are others though. I am trying to find another example but that and little flower’s parents are all I can come up with for now.
Father feel free to give Elena my email address.
JMJ
Helen, one of my favourite Saints is St. Thomas More, who was married, but I don’t think that’s what you’re looking for, is it? Was St. Monica granted the grace of cannonized Sainthood by virtue of her vocation in marriage, or was she granted that grace by virtue of her love as a mother, rather than by her love as a wife? But then again, maybe all of the saints who lived out the vocation to marriage were sanctified by their marriages, and though their married life wasn’t the main reason for their cannonization, the sanctification and growth provided to them by living out their vocation probably helped them in obtaining that final goal, right?
I think I’m going to start reading some of St. Josemaria’s writings… I’m drawn by the title of one of the books advertised online, “In Love with the Church”, but I’m guessing I’ll be told shortly to start with “The Way” first… maybe there’s copies in the library!
Pax Christi
St. Gianna Berretta Molla ?
Good after noon /evening to you all..
I missed you too Helen…
Firstly,Father Wauck how is Don Canio? recovering I hope?
I am so sorry not to have time at the moment… My grandson (Fredrik) is here for the weekend.. as Gabriele is not too well at the moment (this *third* bout of Chemo-therapy is taking it’s toll on her)..
Please say a prayer for her..(as I know you all will).
Have come accross a very interesting site which I would like to give an excerpt from..
It is not a Catholic site but has quite sensible things to comment..
Dan Brown knew very well how to use the media.
From the acknowledgments in >The Davinci CodeThe Davinci Code
oops some of my comment missing again THE REST;-
Dan Brown thanks “The five members of Opus Dei (three active,two former) who recounted their stories,both positive and negative,regarding their experiences inside Opus Dei”
A person with a grudge,perceived or real, will in most cases,seek and find, a scape-goat for his actions
——————————————————————————–
Apostates are not the most credible sources of information
Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence. He must always be seen as one whose personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious commitment and affiliations, the suspicion must arise that he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently to have become a redeemed crusader. As various instances have indicated, he is likely to be suggestible and ready to enlarge or embellish his grievances to satisfy that species of journalist whose interest is more in sensational copy than in a objective statement of the truth.
One of the most common reasons skewing occurs when apostates tell their stories is that they must somehow explain to their listeners how they ‚Äî presumably intelligent, discerning people ‚Äî could have joined such a “despicable” group in the first place. For many apostates, saying that maybe the group wasn’t that despicable after all is not an option (even if it is the truth), given their anger towards the group. And certainly saying that they themselves were stupid and easily duped is not an option. That leaves only one way out: to paint the group as so diabolical, so monstrous, that even intelligent, discerning people (like the apostate, of course) are easily and helplessly “sucked in” and “manipulated”:
Others may ask, if the group is as transparently evil as he now contends, why did he espouse its cause in the first place? In the process of trying to explain his own seduction and to confirm the worst fears about the group, the apostate is likely to paint a caricature of the group that is shaped more by his current role as apostate than by his actual experience in the group.
Elena,
I agree with the spirit and intent of what you say of course! Yes, many cannonized saints as you say about Monica,
” granted the grace of cannonized Sainthood by virtue of her vocation in marriage, or was she granted that grace by virtue of her love as a mother, rather than by her love as a wife? But then again, maybe all of the saints who lived out the vocation to marriage were sanctified by their marriages, and though their married life wasn‚Äôt the main reason for their cannonization, the sanctification and growth provided to them by living out their vocation probably helped them in obtaining that final goal, right?”
The “problem” I have is, that it would be interesting to see how a person in the vocation of marriage has been viewed by the catholic church until Josemaria Escriva came along. I think he helped the catholic church in this matter, to see this vocation as something that is worth considering..
Unlike how this vocation has in practice been esteemed (or not)
I best be quiet now, before my friend tells us what some early fathers thought of it…
She did not even mention all of them who had a dim view of it.
Sandra, Its almost 7:00 pm here, so I can’t go now to mass but I can ask the other half to watch her, and I will go to the church that has 24 hour perpetual adoration for your intentions right now if he can take care of things here if I leave, otherwise- I will tell the priest after Mass about it, and will send you a Mass card for her, and I think if its okay with you… for you as well?
Excerpt from Micelle’s reference:
The canonization of Saint Gianna is the first of its kind. Many mothers have been beatified for their heroic virtues but they entered religious life after becoming widowed. In St Gianna’s case, the very condition of her being a spouse and mother is being exalted and highlighted. St Gianna is the first canonized woman physician and professional who was also a “working mom”.
One must think this to be snob appeal. Mary, herself would have qualifyed under these condiditions?
So, unless you are a professional, or a Virgin, or …..
Married women are?
I wish I could edit my post a bit, but I can’t.
My point being, that this case would not have been representative of the time. Or for the time the church has been in business. One saint, other than Monica and little Flower we can look to in all these years?
Josemaria Escriva- I pray you will bring a married saint for their virtue in marriage, sooner than later, as marriage is, and has always been underminded by those who belive- as well as those who do not.
Please hear my petition, do not despise my petition to you as I know you loved so much Mary, and the Holy family, and Jesus in all you did and said.
Helen, I’m not sure if this fits the bill or not, but check out Elisabeth Leseur:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Leseur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Elisabeth_elisabeth02.jpg
Another Elizabeth……..
SAINT ELISABETH (1207-1231), she at first did not want to marry,but fell in love with her future husband..
She then came to the conclusion that as God gave the world the grace of love between two people,ergo,it could not be a sin to marry and have children.. (in those times a veiw not shared by all,marrage was,by many, regarded as a precaution,if not a cure,for s*xual desires. (not least thanks to Augustus)
This still lives on in the minds of some today, Perhaps that could be a factor as to why female Saints are very often portrayed as being celebate,lived celebate diring marrage, or,at least entered marriage under protest?
She was at times troubled by her conscience for not being able to remain a virgin… her marrage was short but very happy,when her husband found out that she was distributing vast amounts to the poor,he,at first admonished her for this… later she convinced him of the need to help the poorest of the poor.. He then also started to give more freely..
“According to the legend, much celebrated in German art, Louis at first desired to curtail her excessive charities, and forbade her unbounded gifts to the poor. One day, returning from hunting, he met his wife descending from the Wartburg with a heavy bundle filled with bread. He sternly bade her open it; she did so, and he saw nothing but a mass of red roses. The miracle completed his conversion.”
After his death Elisabeth gave practically all of her dowry to the poor.. She also vowed not to remarry..
She died at Marburg on the 19th of November 1231, and four years afterwards was canonized by Gregory IX. on account of the frequent miracles reported to have been performed at her tomb.
She died at the age of only 24yrs… probably caused by the very harsh penances which her “confessor” Conrad of Marburg had given her,including severe beatings..
In Marburg the year 2007 was dedicated to her..
All Elisabeths charitable works did not find favour in the eyes of her Teacher / confessor,Conrad who is said to have accussed her of the sin of “pride”, when she administered to the poor and sick.. she then,did another penace for this “sin”
“The Saint’s Tragedy”
Along th lines of Sandra’s quote, here’s another-Margery Kempe (wikipedia):
She was born Margery Brunham in King’s Lynn (then Bishop’s Lynn), Norfolk, Kingdom of England and married at the age of 20 to a local man named John Kempe, with whom she had 14 children. Her father, John Brunham, was a merchant in Lynn, five-time mayor, Member of Parliament and merchant whose fortunes may have been negatively affected by downturns in the economy, especially in the wool trades, of the 1390s.
Following the birth of her first child, Margery fell ill and feared for her life. After a failed confession that resulted in a bout of self-described “madness,” Margery Kempe claimed to have had a vision that called her to leave aside the “vanities” of this world. Having for many weeks railed against her family, and friends, Kempe reports that she saw a vision of Jesus Christ at her bedside, asking her “Daughter, why hast thou forsaken Me, and I forsook never thee?” From that point forward, Kempe undertook two failed domestic businesses ‚Äî a brewery and a grain mill ‚Äî both common home-based businesses for medieval women.
Though she had tried to be more devout after her vision, she was tempted by s*xual pleasures and social jealousy for some years. Eventually turning away from what she interpreted as the effect of worldly pride in her vocational choices, Kempe dedicated herself completely to the spiritual calling that she felt her earlier vision required. Striving to live a life of commitment to God, Kempe negotiated a chaste marriage with her husband, and began to make pilgrimages around Europe to holy sites — including Rome, Jerusalem, and Santiago de Compostela. The stories surrounding these travels are what eventually comprised much of her Book, although a final section includes a series of prayers. The spiritual focus of her Book is the mystical conversations she conducts with Christ for more than forty years.
So there you have it-a married saint. But it seems a saint *despite* her marriage, given her pact with her husband. IOW, marriage slowed her down in her pursuit of sanctity. Her witness damns marriage with faint praise to say the least.
I just noticed that I missprinted the name of St.Augustine sorry…
Yes ARN… always despite!!
Father Wauck,I would like to “get it straight from the horse’s mouth” so to speak;-
Would I be I wrong in assuming that Opus Dei promotes, that the maritial state is,in any way,less worthy,or, as it’s founder would put it “saintly”,than celebacy?
I must admit I am not quite sure on this please could you clarify this for me? thank you..
Opus Dei doesn’t have any special doctrine on this point. It teaches what the Church teaches. Obviously, Jesus Christ’s words about celibacy for the kingdom of God – and St. Paul’s words too – have to be taken in all their seriousness. I think that we’ve been over this ground before on the blog. At the same time, the excellence of celibacy as a state 1.) has nothing to do with the sanctity that one reaches within one state or another (ie, married people can obviously be holier, more saintly, than celibate people) 2.) does not imply anything “unworthy” about marriage.
As I think I’ve said before here, for Catholics, marriage is a sacrament (celibacy is not). That, in itself, should tell us all we need to know about the essential holiness of marriage.
Having said that, I think it is also fair to say that St. Josemaria put enormous emphasis on marriage (as such, the plain vanilla version) as a vocation to heroic holiness (canonizable sanctity) – an emphasis that was unusual in his own day and still not as common as it ought to be. If I’m not mistaken, there are already two married couples (members of Opus Dei) whose processes of beatification have begun.
The vast majority of the members of Opus Dei are married people, and all of Opus Dei’s stress on the pursuit of holiness in the middle of the world is fully directed to them, without any trimming or diminution. St. Josemaria was insistent that there is only one vocation to Opus Dei, and it’s the same for married people and celibate people.
On another topic – that if this post – I am told that Fr. Canio is recovering. Prayers of course fro Gabriele, Sandra.
Getting back to the married-women saints, allow me to throw a little fuel on the fire: how many married men have been canonized? How many lay people have been canonized?
Martyrs don’t count. Obviously, there have been some kings (just as there have been some queens), but those are somewhat special cases.
Just a point of clarification: the key to pursuing holiness is embracing the vocation that God gives one – whether that is in marriage or not. Clearly, God calls many many people to marriage. For them, that is where their true holiness lies.
Thankyou Father Wauck,firstly thank you (and others) for your prayers.
To your answer;- I thought it might also be helpfull for others to hear that again..
Especially new members to the blog..
Seeing as there is most probably,more married people than there are celebates,it would be such a pity if it was otherwise
I liked the “the plain vanilla version” quote,I read that recently I forget where though..
I can see where you are coming from by your comment
” how many married men have been canonized? How many lay people have been canonized?”
Although,I expect that married women are somewhat in the minority,or not? Dissregarding Queens,widdows who later became celebate? After all the first *Pope* was a married man,allthough he may have been a widower at the time of his death,also Joseph had been married before becoming Mary’s husband,even then,he (is believed) to have led a celebate life during that union… Then again there is Mary’s mother and father did they also live celebate.. who knows,there is,as far as I know,no such mention of this in the Scriptures?
Ooops sorry *off topic* again!!! But in my defence (sorry Helen), the question was raised, or not?
)
“’tis nobler to….. marry or not to marry”, is a point which I believe does merrit mentioning,as it is something that will allways be on the table..
BTW. I can not think of any more worthy of praise than our own, Michelle,Dianne,and ofcourse Brenda (all three members of Opus Dei).
Helen and ARN are doing a great job as wives and mothers too! (nearly for got you gals
I am pleased to hear of Fr.Canio’s recovery.. I hope he recovers fully and can get over the ordeal without, too many, “mental” scars. That must have been an horrific experience,very hard to ‘digest’ mentally.
I am sure we will all continue to pray for him…
What’s new in the Vatican? I heard that a TV “Bible reading” is being concidered at the moment,is this true?
I realy must catch up on the news (outside my little world)
But as I am very lazy at the moment I think I’ll get to bed… Work again in the morning, urrgh!
Another thought on the Margery Kempe wiki piece. You get the impression between the lines that poor Mr. Kempe didn’t raise much of a fuss at his wife’s demands to have an as*xual marriage. She sounds like she was the dominant partner and he may have been a little afraid of her what with her visions and bouts of “madness”. OTOH neurotic people just tend to wear others down.
About the 2 OD couples-I could be wrong but is one of them the couple who also had a Kempe-like arrangement after having 4 kids? That’s cheatin in my book. Formally married but no longer behaving like married people.
OK, married men who are saints. Hmmm… Can’t think of anyone offhand but a couple heads of state in the Middle Ages.
“Just a point of clarification: the key to pursuing holiness is embracing the vocation that God gives one – whether that is in marriage or not. Clearly, God calls many many people to marriage. For them, that is where their true holiness lies.”
As you said, its really been something that has never been in your face until Josemaria Escriva politely reminded everyone that ordinary people living out their vocation in virtue and holiness is not impossible nor should it be an obstacle to anyone to have a different vocation.
Arn, your saint would be considered excommunicated by self no? To not be open to life? I don’t know how old she was though- must read before commenting Helen..Sure makes the NFP/ABC issue dissapear. And, re-defines marriage in a odd way.
Sandra is very correct that these types of cannonized saints are the saints that are in the minority of the church.
And, have been from the beggining. From the beggining, they were- women or man, peasants. But, if you look at the list of cannonized, you would think everyone was educated, everyone was wealthy, or had political power, or, was religious, and so on.
Marriage is a sacrament, but does the church even believe that?
Sure, the Church believes that marriage is a sacrament. It’s just a question of drawing the proper conclusions and putting them into practice.
Oddly enough, this morning – anniversary of St. Josemaria’s canonization (and first day of classes at the university here) – over breakfast, the conversation turned to Naples and, more specifically, two famous churches there: the Marian shrine at Pompei and the Gesu Nuovo in the center of the historical district. Both of them are associated with lay saints (actually, I’m not sure if they’re canonized – maybe just beatified) – one a lawyer and the other a doctor. Both are relatively recent, and I can’t claim that they are typical, but it is a good sign.
No, Arn, I don’t think either of the Opus Dei couples had the kind of marriage arrangement you mention. That has certainly been done in the past though. Such marriages are definitely anomalies, and they probably had a lot to do with the social mores of times gone by. It is not, Helen, the same as contraception or denying the end of marriage. Married couples may refrain from marital relations for any number of reasons (health, etc). In this case, the reason is a spiritual one – not because of a desire to avoid children as such (one of the ends of marriage). Obviously, the question arises: then why did they get married in the first place? And that’s where I suspect social customs have a role. I admit it’s hard to understand…
And remember the case of St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary. They were married. It would not surprise me if the couples who entered into marriage with the mutual understanding – that is necessary (otherwise the marriage would be invalid) – that they would refrain from marital relations thought of themselves as following the example of Mary and Joseph.
If I am not mistaken, the famous philosopher Jacques Maritain and his wife Raissa had a relationship of this sort.
None of what I’m saying should be taken as recommending this very unusual path.
Wrt “snob appeal” (above) and St. Gianna– clearly her cause was put forward because she lived a life of heroic virtue, it’s simply that *one* of the ways her spirit of service manifested itself was through her job– and she happened to be a physician. Here’s a little more on her, from Fr. Rosica (Salt and Light tv), and about the dedication of a stained glass window at the Newman Centre (U of T) at which two of her children were present.
http://www.catholicinsight.com/online/saints/stmolla.shtml
Also, it seems there has been a book of letters between her and her husband published:
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Letters-Husband-Saints-People/dp/0819844934/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223293285&sr=1-2
‘I admit it‚Äôs hard to understand‚Ķ’
Not at all. There’s was a culture that disdained s*xuality, and considered it incongruous with saintliness. And whose fault was that?
To be sure, social customs were behind the decision to marry in the first place, probably to please the in-laws and their dynastic aspirations. And so as a compromise, such couples produced a few heirs to keep them quiet before embarking on a “white marriage”, leaving all that unseemly business behind. I read a scholarly book about this last year and durned if I can remember the title.
Found it: “Spiritual Marriage: S*xual abstinence in medieval wedlock”
http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Marriage-Dyan-Elliot/dp/0691010889/ref=sr_1_1?ie=
Dow’s at under 10000 and sinkng fast.
“And remember the case of St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary. They were married. It would not surprise me if the couples who entered into marriage with the mutual understanding – that is necessary (otherwise the marriage would be invalid) – that they would refrain from marital relations thought of themselves as following the example of Mary and Joseph.”
I can not reconcile comparing the marriage of Joseph and Mary to people today. One can not compare or use them to justify entering into a soxless marriage. If one has taken vows as Mary likely did, *before* entering into another vow *without an angel coming down from God himself to reveal how the marriage would not be typical* And without God’s approval as the one he gave as first example in Adam and Eve, I am sorry but I can’t accept that it’s God behind such an odd plan.
“In this case, the reason is a spiritual one – not because of a desire to avoid children as such (one of the ends of marriage). Obviously, the question arises: then why did they get married in the first place? And that‚Äôs where I suspect social customs have a role. I admit it‚Äôs hard to understand‚Ķ”
How is it spiritual to go against God’s plan for marriage in circumstances that do not involve bearing the God Man? Spirits need to be tested. This spiritual plan does not seem to pass the test. But, we do know there are familiar spirits so, maybe it’s spiritual but not of God. And, which non religious today takes a vow to God of celibacy before taking the vow of marriage? I did not know a priest could marry a couple if they had knowledge the couple would live a life of celibacy. So, yeah it’s hard to understand. Its like fasting from sox, to offer up that for the better of others then? Or to be closer to God because sox can be a impediment to this end? Its mental gymnastics to understand this.
Father, what I meant was that Margery Kempe did away with the struggle of NFP or ABC. You don’t need to struggle with either when you are celibate. That’s not heroic in my mind. Thats a relief some would say.
JMJ
today I met with a priest whom the sisters of our lady immaculate recommended to me, and turns out of all things, he’s Opus Dei!
He mentioned Opus Dei when I told him that one of my friends had said “as long as it’s NOT Opus Dei” when I mentioned the school I would be attending to her. then I told him I have this desire to give everything – everything – of myself to God, which makes me think “consecrated religious life” which is what I’m considering in a very real way, but at the same time I have a deep love of politics – I love working my way through the systems, writing policy, going to conventions, voting, canvassing and campaigning in elections, all of it…
and here I’ve been thinking, one is the path God is calling me to and one must be a temptation away from that path, but which is which?
it’s so confusing because I’m drawn to so many different religious communities because of their Charisms – Fransiscan poverty, Dominican study, St. Therese’s little way type of spirituality, rosary and the office… the evangelical counsels… the fourth vow the Sisters of Life take.. all of it attracts me.
please pray for my discernment!!!
Pax Christi
ps – St. Gianna Molla was my residence patron, I can’t believe I didn’t think of her, I pray to her daily! I LOVE her… you should read about her.
“Thats a relief some would say.”
LOL. Sounds like she’d be making a virtue of necessity, that is the necessity (for her mental health) of avoiding, say a loathsome lout of a husband who has a tragic affection for telling knock knock jokes and is a total bore. “Look, I had a vision that we should stop so we both will be more pleasing to God”. Good thinking!
St Gianna–She did go above and beyond what was required (since removing the cancer had the unavoidable effect of killing the baby) although I don’t think many of us would wonder if hers was the prudent choice since it involved leaving a motherless family behind. Can she in fact be blamed for placing too little value on her own life? I dunno–a lot would depend on her chance of long term survival which back in 1961 was probably not well known. If the cancer was known to be contained with a treatment that would unavoidable cause abortion, perhaps her death can be thought of as a suicide by omission. But she was a doctor, so presumably she was more aware of her condition than the rest of us could ever know.
On the one hand, as a doctor she may have understood that her chance of surviving for long even if she did undergo the hysterectomy was low so she may as well allow the pregnancy to continue. On the other, she may have felt she had a realistic chance of beating the odds despite her advice to save the baby over herself. It was a tough call in the latter case and she lost.
Glad that things seem to be working out, Elena. I’ll be praying for you.
From the looks of the reviews, Arn, the Dyan Elliott book looks somewhat tendentious. As I think I’ve made clear, I am hardly an advocate of “spiritual marriage,” and – as you know from previous posts – I am happy to criticize manichean strains in Christian society (without simply making the two synonymous), but I do think that one ought to show some flexibility of thought here – and not simply lump this phenomenon into the categories of present day academic (often pseudo-academic, ie., ideological) fads.
Yes, Helen, the situation of Mary and Joseph is clearly different and totally unique. My point is that their example could easily offer later Christians a motive – and not necessarily a manichean one – for entering into such a “white marriage.”
In looking at this puzzling reality, it might help to consider it from another angle. Perhaps one should start with the idea of two people who want to be celibate. In other words, if they don’t marry each other, they won’t marry at all. What exactly is the problem – I’m asking seriously, not rhetorically – with their entering into this peculiar partnership in which they share a common life, but respect each other’s desire to remain celibate. Forget for the moment the issue of whether this common life should be called “marriage”; just consider it in itself. What is wrong with it? Remember, they would be celibate anyway; they were never going to have kids. The most problematic thing about it seems to be equating it with marriage as we normally understand it, and I would like to study more about how this was handled. My suspicion is that the peculiarity was fully recognized. The big question, then, is why one would enter into a celibate partnership with someone of the opposite sox.
As it happens, the case of the blessed lawyer from Pompei, Bartolo Longo, offers one answer – strange though it may be. He married a widow (and they lived “as brother and sister”) with whom he was rumored to be having an illicit affair – at the urging of the pope! That quashed the rumors in Naples!
above “Idon’t think” should read “I think”
“What exactly is the problem – I‚Äôm asking seriously, not rhetorically – with their entering into this peculiar partnership in which they share a common life, but respect each other‚Äôs desire to remain celibate.”
Where to begin….
If one does so in order to secure a green card in this country, one could be prosecuted. Now that would be the extreme case of fraud on one end of a “fraud” continuum. But a s*xless marriage entered into a such belongs on that continuum as well. One gets the goodies that the married state gives– respectability, tax benefits etc. w/o doing the work IOW, producing the children that is the reason behind the institution being privileged.
Ooohh, I get it …Sneaky, Fr Wauck. I was about to bring up gay marriage and how if gay marriage is shot down by the RCC, s*xless marriages should be too on the same grounds. That’s a biggie in the contra argumentts–getting benefits w/o producing kids. (but really a rationalized cover for a revulsion for all that ickiness) And you knew one of us would bring that up.
“The most problematic thing about it seems to be equating it with marriage as we normally understand it, and I would like to study more about how this was handled.”
Maybe that’s it. In the eyes of the RCC, the married state is the only one where s*xual expression is legitimate, and even defines it: Think of those expressions,”the use of marriage”, “marital act” instead of the more general “s*xual intercourse”. Of course the spouses don’t have a gun to their heads, but the assumption is that they aren’t celibate. To *perversely* refrain from consummating the marriage is to dilute it, to let others assume a state of affairs that does not exist but is really all a sham. It’s fundamentally dishonest; it degrades an institution that was meant to contain s*xual expression by emptying it of one of its most important attributes. These people have no business getting married.
OTOH, let’s imagine a permissive give-everybody-the-benefit-of-the-doubt world where the dominant ethos (perhaps under an Obama administration) is that anything goes. Hey, if having a celibate marriage floats your boat, go for it! We’re easy!! So’s gay marriage or the marriage of platonic friends who wish to secure the legal advantages of the married state!!! Might this dilute the special status of marriage so much that it becomes meaningless?
Another thought: Spouses in a celibate marriage implicitly claim that their choice is better than their more carnal counterparts. At least they did back in the day (which I imagine made them, even then, insufferable in some eyes). A mute indictment of those who thoroughly enjoyed their s*xuality. Now they would probably be dismissed, justly, as neurotic and repressed. Manichean holdovers, too.
Good evening / morning all,
I wanted to try,to keep this short (as it is late 01.05am).but as always I prob.can’t
I must say all have made valid points.
The thing which puzzels me is,if marriage,by defination,is for two people not to live together as “brother and sister” ,but to become “one flesh”,and have children, then,if even by mutual agreement,they both preclude this possibility,how can the C.Church then call this union a sacrament… ? (ref.to Helen’s question)
Then there is the matter of,same sox marriage.. if both parties,also agree that they have “brotherly / sisterly love” for each other and vow to live celebate why then is that not a sacrament? Ok, they can enter a convent/monastry(I am not saying here that I agree with same sox marriage, It is just a thought that comes to mind),but then a similar option is open to hetro couples,ie’ they can live in a flat-sharing arangement,if they both know in their “heart of hearts” that they are “doing no wrong” it should not matter what “the world” / society believes,or not? Is not marriage then degraded to,a matter of, “keeping up appearences” ?
Father this in ref. to the example you give above.. (Bartolo Longo)
The sacrament of Marriage IMO. is then I’m afraid in danger of becoming an “expandable” termonology, in no way resembling the “original” intent…
BTW. ARN I agree with your views concerning the case of St Gianna.. Although I must respect her courage to honor her convictions.
One last thought on this,I imagine that very many,very devout women,through-out the ages have also lost their lives in child-birth,wishing to save their child,many may have not had the choice that St.Gianna had,but just as many did. Would make for a whole load of “presumptive” saints…
Men usually,do not face such ‘decission making”… oh, but wait they did… when in (hopefully) days gone by,they were the ones who made that “choice” ..for their wives…
who were,due to circumstances, unable to voice their own wishes…
When does ‘pro-life’ become a ‘death wish’ for the mother? Is there not also the danger,that,the perception of what does “religious society” expect of a devout Catholic wife and mother,could blurr good common-sense.
On this note,I will use mine,and get to bed … good night to you all..
“I imagine that very many,very devout women,through-out the ages have also lost their lives in child-birth,wishing to save their child,many may have not had the choice that St.Gianna had,but just as many did. Would make for a whole load of ‚Äúpresumptive‚Äù saints‚Ķ”
I wonder if they ever opted to go out in agony when there was any possibility of ending the labor sooner via a “craniotomy”. That is, crushing the baby’s head and extracting it in pieces through the too small pelvic opening. Too small mostly because the miserable diets back then may have warped the bones (rickets) And only if you had an attendant with the proper tools. (I once saw display of antique obstetric tools, hooks for craniotomies and high forceps no longer used, imagining being the subject w/o any anaesthesia of course. Yikes.)
Of course most of these women died painful deaths because the midwife wasn’t competent in such situations. If they were in the hands of someone who was, my guess is the mother was saved every time. Especially if the choice was up to her if she wasn’t half out of her mind with pain after 48 or 72 hours in labor. Imagine if it were you.
Happily these situations don’t happen any more in developed countries.
Hmmm. A little bit at a time here…
As far as I can tell, a soxless marriage would present no problems for the folks at the INS. No one is policing whether a couple is actually having marital relations or intends to in the future.
Obviously, gay “marriage” is a completely different kettle of fish (in some sense, the exact opposite), since in such a relationship, the “marital relations” would be inherently sinful.
It is not a sin not to have children. What’s problematic – this seems to be the crux of the matter in my mind (and it seems to be what Helen and Sandra are driving at) – is the idea that you can enter into a true marriage if you have already ruled out marital relations. Clearly, the mere fact of not having relations is not in itself sinful; if it were, then most married people would be sinning most of the time.
The question, rather, is whether a “white marriage” even counts as marriage… and why anyone would bother (hence my interest in the social circumstances that might justify what seems, on the face of it, to be rather bizarre and pointless behavior). The case of temporary abstinence – or even permament abstinence after a certain point – seems to be quite different, since people refrain from relations for all sorts of reasons, and – in any case – there are plenty married couples who, in practice, abstain from relations for one reason or another.
And then, there is always the important case of Mary and Joseph. The Church has always taught that they were truly married. I don’t think you want to say that a marriage without sox is intrinsically evil; otherwise, even given the absolutely unique circumstances of the Holy Family, you would seem to be in the position of saying that – at least in one situation – it’s OK to commit an intrinsically evil act. From the point of view of moral coherence, that’s not a very good position to be in.
I don’t think it is sufficient to say that these “white marriages” occurred because people in the past believed that sox was incompatible with holiness. If that were the whole story, then they could – as many did – just head over to the monastery or nunnery. No problem at all. The odd thing here is the combination of a desire to marry with a desire to be celibate – things that seem contradictory.
“Revulsion at all that ickiness” may explain some cases, but it does not seem to cover all, and – again – unless you have a gun to your head, it’s easy enough to avoid any so-called “ickiness”. Just don’t get married.
In short, it’s the combination that puzzles.
I suppose it’s worth remembering that we are talking about a very very very small number of cases. An extreme anomaly. You will look in vain -as I have recently done – for references to this in the old Catholic Encyclopedia or in the new Catechism. In other words, it’s not as if we’re talking about another vocational choice among others. You’ve got to go way out of your way to find theologians who are even contemplating the possibility of such marriages. It’s just not on the radar. It may not be worth racking one’s brain too much over the matter…
Today being the feast of the Holy Rosary, I think I should make aplug for the recitation of the rosary. In general, the month of October is especially associated with the rosary (like May), and this year it might be good to pray the rosary with the intention of resolving the financial crises that are sure to harm many people in the days ahead – and also for the elections in November so that Americans vote as God would have them vote.
Since the historical origin of today’s feast is in a military battle, these “worldly” concerns should not seem too out of place in our rosary intentions this month.
In ref. to my comment last evening “original intent”
From Catholic Encyclopedia;-
I. MARRIAGE INSTITUTED BY GOD—- (Moral and Canonical Aspect of Marriage)
“Marriage is a contract and is by its very nature above human law. It was instituted by God, is subject to the Divine law, and cannot for that reason be rescinded (set aside) by human law. Those who contract marriage do so indeed by their own free wills, but they must assume the contract and its obligations unconditionally.
Marriage is natural in purpose, but Divine in origin.
*>>>It is sacred, being intended primarily by the Author of life to perpetuate His creative act and to beget children of God;
Sorry Father wauck.. my comment is not complete (still don’t know why that happens so often)
I will refrain from writing the rest as you in your above comment have refered to most of my points..Thankyou.
And yes, “In short, it‚Äôs the combination that puzzles”.
Just to complete the sentance from the Catholic Encyclopedia on marrage..
“its secondary ends are mutual society and help, and a lawful *remedy* for concupiscence.”..I find that quite “quaint”
Further;-
“Human law certainly takes cognizance of marriage, but marriage not having been established by man, its essential properties cannot be annulled by such law. Marriage is monogamic and indissoluble; death alone dissolves the union when *consummated*”
Oh ARN… The mere thought is TERRIFYING… Hideous, but oh soo true!
I know for a fact that here,in the not so distant past,the Husband was asked, if the occasion arrised, who should the doctor try to save first, “the Child or the mother” if(as you say)she, is unable to express any coherent answer.. After doing her duty the wife was often left to her own devices… good to have had a strong constitution..
Well I do pray for Americans,and hope they make the right choice on 4th Nov… for all our sakes.
BTW how’s the Vatican Bank “weathering the storm” ? Are they not in the “money lending business” ?
Iceland is as good as bankrupt they say..
The rest of Europe is not much better either..
The “end of days” fanatics will be having a “hay-day” prophetising “the end is nigh”..
What a state of affairs, and all ‘man-made’,greed reigns. Do we really have to ask ‘how could this happen’?
I am looking forward to the debate this evening (early morning)…
night night… tc all
Canonical impediments can be found in the good old catholic encyclopedia. My “probelem” is that the average joe has been held accountable for many things that a person in a “white marriage” is not held to. I think the “white marriage” should not be seen as good or bad.
Simply defended, upon the evidence that we have at our disposal. What is the tradition for this?
Father, with all due respect, it is not enough to say this is a rare case/loophole, depending on the viewer.
I will defend celibacy as long as I breathe, but this is another thing as remote as Our Lady Of Guadalupe is.
Unlikely at best, let’s not think of the worst case senario.
Josemaria Escriva,I will continue praying
Marriage is a religious institution.
Can. 1088 Those bound by a public perpetual vow of chastity in a religious institute invalidly attempt marriage.
Can. 1085 §1. A person bound by the bond of a prior marriage, even if it was not consummated, invalidly attempts marriage
More mental gymnastics.
Hi Helen, yes mental gymnastics indeed..
but the, when I was a school (Catholic girls only) many,many decades ago, we were taught “we don’t have to understand”.
Pope Benedikt says “with Faith and REASON” don’t look like all are listening.
Famous quote;- ( “The Charge of the Light Brigade” by Alfred Tennyson)
“Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death”
…. be dammned?
ARN, what ever came out of your son’s interview? I hope he did well..
Helen nice to hear that your daughter is doing so well at school,weiter so = keep it up.
Michelle,Dianne,Michelle DC. Brenda, Ich gr?º?üe Euch auch = greetings to you also…
Have a nice day all
PS. Father Wauck,greetings to you as allways, “despite” being a man among all us *women folk*
All this talk of having a “white marriage” reminds me of the story of one religious sister whose parents asked the Vatican to dissolve (I’m not even sure if that is the proper term in this case) their marriage so that the wife could become a religious sister and the husband a religious brother. Thus it was done, and the nun recounted in the article that it seemed like she lost her parents when she escorted them to the religious orders they were joining (she was already a religious sister at that time and her mother was then joining the congregation she was then a part of – she later founded another congregation). It’s a different way of losing one’s parents, you might say. I’m sorry I can’t trace that article anymore to cite the actual persons involved and give credit to the proper sources.
Sorry I have been away… Work has been hectic as of late.
Clearly, I will have to do some research on this point.
You’re perfectly right, Helen, the rareness of the case doesn’t explain anything… except why none of us here seem to have tidy explanations for these cases. It is interesting that, according to Canon 1085, consummation of the marriage is not necessary to make it impossible to marry again. This may simply mean, though, that the de facto matter of consummation is not the determining factor in being married, which doesn’t really address the intention of the people.
Good evening all,
Three new Saints today…
1 Priest,Gaetano Errico,
1 Nun,Sister Alphonsa of the Immaculate Conception
1 A ‘consecrated virgin’,Narcisa de Jesus Martillo Moran
It can not be disputed that St. Augustinus did much to ‘idolise’ the virginial state… (and later St.Thomas of Aquin)
His (Augustinus)own unhappy encounters with the “vile act of wanton lust” (as he called it), coupled with his own bad conscience,led to the de-soxualization of marriage, which still prevails today..
Marriage is a mere medicine,the wife is the nurse,who addministers that medicine,to the non-abstenent patient. Of course,allways with the sole intent,the procreation of children,and most important of all “bare any lust what so ever”.
St. Augustine IMO falsely,interprated St.Pauls words to mean that the Ideal state one should aspire to is the celebate one,but then,he as much as dammned the other Vers of St. Paul ;-
St. Paul wrote that they should not deprive each other, except for a time for devotion to prayer.
When requiring that they should not “give in to carnal desires” even within marriage bed.
Now that is confussing.
BTW. the early Church Scholars (11-13 Century)were of the opinion that,In the OT times the human race had fullfilled the commandment to ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it’ so that after the NT s+xual abstenence was the will of God.
Which in other words,degrades marriage to a kind of clinic for all those,who could not quite “make the grade”
This could be one of the reasons for so much confussion concerning this subject… Old habits die hard!
The libraries are FULL of books on this subject,at least 80% writen by men.and mostly by Celebate men..
The choice that people make to remain / or become celebate,is a personal matter,which I and any other must accept and respect,so then,should the choice to marry,be just as personal and therefore just as respectable. The idea that one is more aceptable in the eyes of God than the other,would be to question the will of God. Who,after all as the Catholic Church preaches;- Marriage is a sacrament, it does not,to my knowledge,say it is a “2nd class” sacrament.?
Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Sacraments
Article 7
1601″The matrimonial covenant—this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.”
1602 “God himself is the author of marriage.”
1603 “It is not good that the man should be alone.”
1604 “Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: “And God blessed them, and God said to them: ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.’”
Therefore,Opus Dei founder Josemaria Escriva,shows himself,regarding this issue,to be in accord with God’s will.
Good day to all,
Please say a prayer for Gabriele, she had her (hopefully) last chemo yesterday.. today lung CCT. thursday liver CCT. We are all praying that THIS time there will be good news.
Our hopes have been shattered twice allready,I hope and pray that,she has at last,beaten this BEAST!
I hope to go to visit on Friday.. and God willing,there will be positive news.
Thankyou all for the many prayers and good wishes in the past,God,I am sure will have listened,and have mercy on her and her family.. If the chemo has not worked as desired,I don’t know if there is a “plan B”.
Hopefully we will not need to think about that though.
Take care all and be asured that you are all,for ever in my thoughts.
xxx sandra xxx
Prayers especially today, Sandra.
Sandra–I will be praying for Gabriele. I hope you still have your sweet grandson by your side.
I have a moral dillemma of sorts. How do I go about ruffling feathers, when lives are at stake if I don’t?
I am in a quandry. I am wondering if I may loose my card if I gather protesters at a site…..
Father, pray for me. My parish has someone promoting a baby killer openly that is paid by the parish.
Not the first time she got away with it either. I know we have freedom, and the Catholic Church gives us plenty of room for that freedom, and confusion. There are many lives at stake Father. No one speaks for them.
Good morning to you all,
firstly Helen,although I do not know the exact facts concerning your dilemma, I think you should follow your concience,in doing so,you at least are being true to your convictions.. (as I am sure you will).
I only hope that the”apPal(l)in-efect” of inciting violence,does not put you in any danger. Hatered is NOT the way,LOVE,decency,and good arguementation IS. I only wish that the Pro-life movement had a more integre
“role model”, than she has proven (not) to be.”Lies have short legs”(germam pro-verb),but people have long memories.
Politics as seen, through this whole unsavoury campaign,does NOT help the “freedom of speech”,vs. the
“freedom of choice”,none has gained any points,it has only widend the chasm,making it more difficult for ‘intelligent’ people to breach. I wish you well in what ever decission you make.(please take care).
Latest stand of afairs concerning Gabriele, good and not so good, the lung is free of tumors,GOOD.
The liver sadly not.(not so good)
Gabriele starts the FOURTH cycle of chemo next monday.
Three times;- Once a week for three weeks,one week pause.The doctor says that she then should not have any more chemo,as it can be harmfull to the surrounding organs…
If this does not reduce the tumor,then he will put her forward for an “experimental” therapy, he thinks she may have a 60/40 chance there… Please keep up the prayers…. and thank you ALL for the support,both in prayer and in personal e-mails… We continue to think POSITIVE!!!
Prayers, of course, for Gabriele… especially on Monday.
We’ve been talking a lot about marriage and sanctity here.
On Saturday, I had the pleasure of celebrating the wedding Mass of two dear friends of mine, here in Rome, in the Church of Santa Maria in Trastevere. I hope that you all will say a prayer for Andrew and Louisa as they embark on this path of holiness.
I’m also reminded that Louis Martin and Marie-Z?©lie Gu?©rin, the parents of St. Th?©r?®se of the Child Jesus, were beatified on Sunday in Lisieux, France, by Cardinal Jos?© Saraiva Martins, the former prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints. As far as I know, they lived a fairly normal married life.
Helen, I don’t think that there is anything necessarily wrong with ruffling feathers. Just yesterday, the Gospel spoke about how Our Lord spoke his mind openly without “human respects,” and we all know that “admonishing sinners” is considered a spiritual work of mercy. The important thing is to ruffle feathers for the right reason and with genuine Christian charity for the person with the plummage.
“…Louis Martin and Marie-Z?©lie Gu?©rin, the parents of St. Th?©r?®se of the Child Jesus, were beatified on Sunday in Lisieux, France, by Cardinal Jos?© Saraiva Martins, the former prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints. As far as I know, they lived a fairly normal married life”
Well, that wasn’t their intentin at first, so they aren’t really perfect exemplars. They were to embark on a “white marriage” but were fortunately dissuaded by their priest. That flesh-hating gnostic jansenistic thinking prevailed for a long time among the French apparently. I think it’s notable that the priest seemed more forward thinking than these two.
My fondest wish is for a saint or saints (preferably female but a male would do) who was unabashedly all for physical joy, but I think that’s a bridge too far.
My computer’s broken but I wanted to see what was going on here (in library).
ARN,Michelle I got your E-mail thankyou both.. ARN I hope your PC is working again soon.. I miss you…
I have not been home much at the moment but will be all weekend as I have a lot of work to catch up on..
Father Wauck,all the best wishes for the marriage of your friends..
BTW. I second ARN’s wish.. but THAT could be another “bridge to nowhere” … jk.
Helen I hope you were able to ‘come to terms’ with your “dilemma”
I recived a very lovely letter from Michelle DC. a few weeks ago,I miss her too on the blog..
Also Brenda,Dianne,and not to forget PTT.. We had such realy good ‘discussions’…
Come on ‘guys’ let’s not give up on Father Wauck!!!
I wish you ALL a VERY VERY good night… Take care all.
Thanks Sandra, and I hope to keep up in the near future on Whiz Kid’s suberb computer, now unattended because he has a JOB! A crappy job to be sure. (Radio Shack salesman, which during his Wall St internship he said its stock was only good for shorting) Still something for the short term in these miserable days of his getting nowhere in his job search.
Here’s a little video to bring on some laughs:
http://view.break.com/592648
Good afternoon to you all,
This is such a compelling book,I hope you all will be able to read it,I think it can be read on-line,if not
GO OUT AND GET IT!!
http://www.lefttotell.com/book/index.php
This woman IS a saint in the making IMHO…
I often wonder,why *most* must first,DIE a terrible death ie’ for their Faith,be /or become celebate,before being acknowledged as “saintly”.. It defies all reason.(please note,I state *most*)
(1.COR.13:4-8)
are pilling up.
“Love bears all things,believes in all things,hopes all things,endures all things.Love never ends”
Forgivness and reconcilliation,is “The Way”.
A slightly different angle on the Commandment ;-
“Love thy neighbour as thy self” = Love thy persecutor,as thou would be loved, by GOD!
I am still crying after reading this extraordinary book,as I am convinced you all will.
Now back to my housework… the “socks” matching or not
I wish you all a ‘Peacefull’ day.
PS ARN glad to hear Whiz Kid has at least a *job*. I hope he will at a (not so) later date be able to use his skills to fullfill his “dreams”… give him my best regards.
(Same goes,of course,for you all.)
Father Wauck,if I may I would like to post the following link to buying the above mentioned book.
http://www.catholicfreeshipping.com/Products/cfs_lefttotell.html
You guys make me laugh out loud! I had no intention of making an hostile demonstration, or to do anything that would detract from what Paul told us to do, to preach the Christ Crucifyed. In peace, of course.
I sent you Sandra, and Arn a key to get the pics of the child as flower girl at her sister’s wedding. I am still recovering from all the fun! She did very well. You would have been proud of her. I will also pray for the newly married couple Father asked us to pray for of course. If it is not a bother, I have Mass intentions on Halloween (31, 10, 08) Friday- for her and her Godfather. Please keep them both in your intentions if you will.
I will try to send to Father pics as well of the blessed event.
As usual, your miracle from God is in my prayers Sandra. I send Mary a rose, or Zinna, or orchid, each Sunday Holy Mass for her intention with prayers for her. And you as well.
Also pray for my niece, who works at NASA and will put on a demo for the kiddies when she is on holiday. She is an AE for them. I hope she can explain why we spend so much for that program, and the benefits to us.
Personally, I am all for it.
“The important thing is to ruffle feathers for the right reason and with genuine Christian charity for the person with the plummage.”
Dear Father, I am bolding this one up, cutting it and pasting it to a new chapter in the book I started for her. I love it, and I know you are dead spot on with this, in my very heart.
Joan Biaz’s new single ‘God is God’
“I believe in miracales, I believe in Angels,I believe in God”
Great singer/song writer,great theme!!
http://www.myspace.com/joanbaez
For all you lovely people….
God bless.
Helen,
‘Mary’…. is for you..
Enjoy
xxx sandra xxx